Can paladins be chaotic good?

81 Human Paladin
1355
Can paladins be chaotic good?

I'm assuming they can be neutral good.

I'm asking because would they lose their Light powers from being chaotic? For example cussing, getting !@#$faced, or going to the club (lol).
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90 Night Elf Mage
13765
Paladins do not need to take:

Vows of chastity
Vows of poverty
Vows of abstinence

Etc.

That is also not 'Chaotic Good' to go out and party. Nor is it 'Lawful Good' to not do these things.

Lawful Good - Basically means you respect the law. You hold utter faith in the law and are rather narrow-minded. You find it difficult to bend, and you generally will never break from the laws of the land. You'll tend towards utter honesty and rarely, if ever, deceive or lie.

Example: You encounter a murderer. You know he's a murderer but have not witnessed him commit a murder. You would bring him to justice by dragging him to the authorities who would give him a trial and then execute him. You would not execute him on the spot.

Chaotic Good - You trust in your instincts. You'll do whatever needs to be done despite what the law might say. You will deceive and lie if necessary. You will withhold information if necessary. You will act how you think you can best achieve the goals of good.

Example: You encounter a murderer. You confront him and take justice into your own hands acting as judge, jury and executioner without consulting the proper authorities.

A paladin, quite honestly, runs the gamut of Lawful to Chaotic Good. It depends on your interpretation of how your character would react. Some paladins will only ever be Lawful some will edge themselves between Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic. The more important aspect is that paladins will rarely tread in Lawful/Netural/Chaotic Neutral territory and almost never tread into the evil alignments.
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90 Human Paladin
7705
Don't think in terms of alignments.

Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne).

-- Ask CDev, Round I Answers

This is what you should abide by instead.

For example cussing, getting !@#$faced, or going to the club (lol).


This does not sound like someone with a lot of faith or willpower. It's up to you to convince me (and anyone else) otherwise.

Warcraft has had Light-using Paladins with immature attitudes before. Granted, they retained the best of intentions.
Edited by Aurric on 5/22/2013 3:10 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
9525
Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith IN ONE'S OWN ABILITY to do it.

The way how I interpreted it was as long as you as a paladin believe in the Light OR have the mental strength to use it you are a Light Wielder regardless of your own alignments. So if you have the willpower to bend the Light to do your bidding or have confidence in your skill to use it you can be a paladin... Or at the very least a Light Wielder. Most though opt to be "good" but you technically caaaaan be "bad" if you so choose. Don't know what sort of reception you'd get, however, playing an evil paladin. Could be entertaining if done right.
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83 Blood Elf Warlock
9075
This isn't D&D. You're not required to be Lawful Good in alignment to be a paladin. All you need is faith in the Light and the training and skill to swing it about.

The Blood Knights being the best example for that. We may not know what they're like now, but when they were tapping M'uru directly for their powers, that was hardly a good act. Edit - and of course, the Scarlet Crusade paladins are hardly good guys.
Edited by Seyl on 5/25/2013 10:03 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Death Knight
5305
Paladins do not need to take:

Vows of chastity
Vows of poverty
Vows of abstinence

Etc.

That is also not 'Chaotic Good' to go out and party. Nor is it 'Lawful Good' to not do these things.

Lawful Good - Basically means you respect the law. You hold utter faith in the law and are rather narrow-minded. You find it difficult to bend, and you generally will never break from the laws of the land. You'll tend towards utter honesty and rarely, if ever, deceive or lie.

Example: You encounter a murderer. You know he's a murderer but have not witnessed him commit a murder. You would bring him to justice by dragging him to the authorities who would give him a trial and then execute him. You would not execute him on the spot.

Chaotic Good - You trust in your instincts. You'll do whatever needs to be done despite what the law might say. You will deceive and lie if necessary. You will withhold information if necessary. You will act how you think you can best achieve the goals of good.

Example: You encounter a murderer. You confront him and take justice into your own hands acting as judge, jury and executioner without consulting the proper authorities.

A paladin, quite honestly, runs the gamut of Lawful to Chaotic Good. It depends on your interpretation of how your character would react. Some paladins will only ever be Lawful some will edge themselves between Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic. The more important aspect is that paladins will rarely tread in Lawful/Netural/Chaotic Neutral territory and almost never tread into the evil alignments.


I very strongly disagree with your definitions of Lawful/Chaotic.

Lawful means that you value social order and structure and, in effect, place needs of the many over those of the individual. Chaotic means the opposite: you place the balance on the individual and their personal freedoms and liberties. Neither is necessarily an absolute.

A lawful character need not respect a nation's laws. Typically they do, but it is also possible that they could see some laws -- even an entire society -- as unjust and not following an ethic of the greater good. A lawful good character could easily be a protester or even a revolutionary. Imagine a lawful good character who opposes slavery... on the other hand, a lawful good person could live in a society with slavery if his moral code somehow justified it.

I agree that a LG character would probably not lie -- but he might, if he felt it was for the greater good. But a chaotic good character, by virtue of being **good** wouldn't like lying, either. Saying that "you will deceive and lie if necessary" because you're CG is just FALSE.

Anyway... D&D alignments can be useful tools for some people, in some situations. I personally prefer not to use them, except sometimes as VERY broad outlines, but to each their own. If you wanna, go for it. If you prefer a different, more "hollistic" approach (as do I), more power to you.

Peace.
Edited by Rottingbull on 5/25/2013 10:33 AM PDT
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100 Human Mage
20535
As has already been said, Paladins in the Warcraft setting are different from those in most pen and paper RPGs. Technically speaking, they can run the whole gamut of the alignments so long as they have the mental conviction that they're doing the right thing. If that self-confidence ever weakens, their ability to wield the Light tends to weaken or outright stop.

However, unless your character was self-taught (which would be rather unlikely), they would've spent most of their training in churches and other similar institutes*, which would obviously be trying to impart what they consider a Good lifestyle on any aspiring representatives for them.

*The Tauren, so far as I'm aware, are the exception.
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70 Human Paladin
15295
*The Tauren, so far as I'm aware, are the exception.

The first blood elf paladins weren't exactly pious either. I imagine that has changed in recent years (or would if blizzard cared to give us some more lore on them) and that new recruits might be more "Good" but there are probably still some holdouts from the original blood knights.

My own paladin wasn't exactly a straight arrow in her youth, and becoming one is in part to make up for that. Even now when she is off duty she still indulges in drinking, cursing, the occasional one night stand, and general debauchery. That being said, she also struggles with the more powerful holy spells.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13010
Why is it that when I think of a chaotic good paladin I think of like drive-by good deeds.

Or the well-meaning superhero who does well-meaning but stupid things.

Things like defusing explosives in a building... that is ready to be demolished.
Or swooping in to save the damsel in distress from a villain and beating the villain up... in a play, making the whole darn thing FUBAR, so bad it can't be improved out of.
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90 Night Elf Mage
13765
Why is it that when I think of a chaotic good paladin I think of like drive-by good deeds.

Or the well-meaning superhero who does well-meaning but stupid things.

Things like defusing explosives in a building... that is ready to be demolished.
Or swooping in to save the damsel in distress from a villain and beating the villain up... in a play, making the whole darn thing FUBAR, so bad it can't be improved out of.


... I could see this being Deadpool.

I very strongly disagree with your definitions of Lawful/Chaotic.

Lawful means that you value social order and structure and, in effect, place needs of the many over those of the individual. Chaotic means the opposite: you place the balance on the individual and their personal freedoms and liberties. Neither is necessarily an absolute.

A lawful character need not respect a nation's laws. Typically they do, but it is also possible that they could see some laws -- even an entire society -- as unjust and not following an ethic of the greater good. A lawful good character could easily be a protester or even a revolutionary. Imagine a lawful good character who opposes slavery... on the other hand, a lawful good person could live in a society with slavery if his moral code somehow justified it.

I agree that a LG character would probably not lie -- but he might, if he felt it was for the greater good. But a chaotic good character, by virtue of being **good** wouldn't like lying, either. Saying that "you will deceive and lie if necessary" because you're CG is just FALSE.


You can disagree with them as you like, but I wasn't defining them. Pathfinder was.

A Chaotic Good character follows their instincts, acts on their own principles and beliefs, all for the greater good. They're going to lie and cheat and etc. because they aren't bound by the laws of tradition or the land.

A Lawful Good character is bound by the laws of the land and traditions of their order/people/beliefs. A Lawful Good character, in a D&D setting, isn't going to act outside of this without taking a hit to alignment, if only for a moment.

Now realistically? These alignments mean nothing because a realistic character is going to generally run the gamut in an entire alignment (Good/Neutral/Evil) and maybe even cross over into the other alignments (Good-Neutral. Neutral-Evil. Good-Evil). And then of course the Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic. But yeah - those are the basics of how Pathfinder defines them.
Edited by Iraelius on 5/27/2013 8:28 AM PDT
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89 Tauren Paladin
0
While this thread is here...

To my understanding, the Tauren Sunwalkers are shamanistic similar to the Draenei paladins, correct? Or do the Draenei gravitate more towards the traditional Human/Dwarf faith in the Light?
I'm curious as to the Tauren paladins' development since Cata. The Dezco quest chains in Mists so far seem to regard their power as the "Light" in the same way the Alliance does. (though I assume they still think of it as An'she) Could this suggest that they're learning from somewhere, or is Blizzard just being consistent?

And back to the Blood Knights; since they no longer have the captured Naru, where do they tap their magic from?

/is new, knows little
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90 Night Elf Mage
13765
Tauren Sunwalkers are supposed to be armoured druids, essentially. The tauren druids learned from Cenarius who was still more a Night Elf sort of being than a tauren one and venerated the moon and night strictly. The tauren Sunwalkers follow the belief in venerating the Sun specifically instead of the moon - druids themselves either venerate one or the other, sometimes both.

Second, Draenei paladins are not shamanistic. Draenei paladins would be similar more in regards to real life Abrahamic religions where they believe in the Light as a sentient force and deity, whereas humans and dwarves generally see the Light as a divine energy and a philosophy to follow.

It's possible the tauren are moving toward a belief in the Light, but I'm putting that down to Blizzard's inconsistent writing.

As to Blood Elves - they never really 'tapped into' M'uruu. The Light itself is a damn tricky thing to understand - it works off faith but there's never defined a specific sort of faith it works off of. M'uruu's presence gave the Blood Elves a faith in themselves which let them channel the Light. Even now they're wielding the Light on their own faith in it and themselves and less by tapping into anything.
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89 Tauren Paladin
0
I see; I had always assumed the Draenei were more 'preserve the balance' types due to the inclusion of Draenei into the Earthen Ring, but obviously that doesn't necessarily define their entire culture, seeing as there are figures in the Earthen Ring that aren't like the rest of their respective races. (Goblins, for one; then you have Wildhammer Dwarves; Orcs for sure)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
I see; I had always assumed the Draenei were more 'preserve the balance' types due to the inclusion of Draenei into the Earthen Ring, but obviously that doesn't necessarily define their entire culture, seeing as there are figures in the Earthen Ring that aren't like the rest of their respective races. (Goblins, for one; then you have Wildhammer Dwarves; Orcs for sure)


Right now, Orc Shaman are a bit touchy. At one point, orcish shaman and warriors were synchronized - can you say "Blood and thunder!"? - but right now, there's a HUGE disconnect between Orc Shaman and Orc Warriors.

It's epitomized by the dissonance between Thrall and Garrosh.

Shaman are the morality chains of Orcish culture. They are to orcs what Priests are to humans.

And dwarves.

Kaldorei have that role split between priests and druids, but it's still there.

But that's OT.
Edited by Traleda on 5/27/2013 11:23 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Death Knight
5305
You can disagree with them as you like, but I wasn't defining them. Pathfinder was.


I don't know spit about Pathfinder.

But I do know about the old AD&D game and that is where I got my definitions from. They are based on the definitions made by Gary Gygax and his team.

A Chaotic Good character follows their instincts, acts on their own principles and beliefs, all for the greater good. They're going to lie and cheat and etc. because they aren't bound by the laws of tradition or the land.


From everything I remember, in the old game good was defined as respecting and protecting life and others' lives were seen as having inherent value. One does not harm others; one helps others, or at least does not go out of one's way to harm them. Evil, on the other hand, sees others as instruments -- if they recognise them at all -- and does not put any stock in others' "rights" to happiness or life.

Now, lying and cheating as a regular course of action involves an instrumentalisation of others, a lack of respect for their existence. It is a form of harm and clearly not a good alignment trait. Of course, everything can be situational and even a lawful good character might tell a lie in order to promote a greater good. But, overall, lying and cheating aren't among the traits of good characters.

We can rules lawyer this all we want ... but as far as I can recall, this is how it was in old school AD&D. It's different in Pathfinder? Well, good for Pathfinder, but I'm sticking with Gary Gygax, who invented the whole alignment system.
Edited by Rottingbull on 5/27/2013 12:23 PM PDT
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