Trouble with DW Frost

90 Orc Death Knight
4885
Is it really that bad at higher item levels? Some sims I was looking at indicate it is the worst dps spec in the game, almost 50k behind the top specs right now. I got a heroic weapon and so I wanted to give dw frost a shot... but the numbers I'm seeing are really disappointing.

Also, my armory isn't 100% up to date. Swap out the str/haste for str mastery and the shado pan trink for a 530 Feather to imagine my raiding set up.

Any advice helps, otherwise the 543 axe is going to end up collecting dust in my bank =(
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90 Orc Death Knight
4885
Bump.
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90 Orc Death Knight
11895
Some sims I was looking at indicate it is the worst dps spec in the game


Here's your problem right there. Yes. Dual Wield is the worst dps spec you can choose for a patchwerk, single target, zero movement fight. Of which there are a grand total of zero in current content.
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90 Orc Death Knight
4885
Thanks, I wouldn't have ever guessed that (I raid with my eyes close and have everything bound to 1). Now, any helpful advice?

alt-tab 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
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90 Draenei Death Knight
18820
Dual wield sucks, frost dks in general suck, DKs on a whole are mediocre in DPS.
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90 Orc Death Knight
4885
I'm mad too.

Unholy was amazing last patch and I still am able to burst really high and pull good numbers, I just didn't get that nice bump in dps on patch day everyone else got when they upgraded. In unholy I can keep most classes on their toes. With dw frost its like....... I can't stop thinking how much blizzard blows for failing so hard to balance classes... they weren't always this way.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15165
On average in the top 3 for even a single target fight as frost there is a DW Frost right with the 2 handed Frost. A few things to consider though.

1. 2 handed frost is the Blood DPS that people begged for (large population per capita)

2. easy to get a 2 hander and harder to get 2x 1 handers (Trust me I know)

3. Master Frost has a finesse to do it right in how they spend their unholy runes that really make or break their dps.

4. You relied on Unholy to get your dps and the strength nerf hit you a little.

5. Both versions of frost are generally behind Unholy even still so why complain about DW?

kthx.
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90 Orc Death Knight
9710
05/26/2013 02:53 AMPosted by Tor
3. Master Frost has a finesse to do it right in how they spend their unholy runes that really make or break their dps.


I find this the most difficult aspect of DW to master. I picked up DW a few days ago, having had Unholy as my OS for all of 5.2. Figuring out what to do with my Unholy runes is harder than I thought it would be, mainly because DW plays so quickly and is such a busy spec that you get into a habit of button mashing with a sort of "flow,' and it's hard to break that, since literally every second (every global cooldown) you are using an ability. It's like, gogogogogogogo. The instant I get a Killing Machine proc I hit Frost Strike without thinking, Death runes fuel my Howling Blasts, and every Unholy rune I have I find myself using for Plague Strike just to get rid of them. I'm also using Blood Tap, unmacroed.

I am pretty sure I'm doing it wrong, but I'm still having a lot of fun with DW. I feel like an icy whirlwind of howling blast death, and I kind of want a snow cone after dpsing for a while.
Edited by Felisara on 5/26/2013 4:38 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Death Knight
9535
DW is go go go that is for sure. I ran tops in all the rbgs last night with a pug from oQueue, well a hunter on our side did top me once. And horde did top me a lot, but we won most of the matches anyway. I shined for our team and the leader wants me back for rating push. So DW can work.

Right after patch 5.3 I did strength and mastery gems and reforge. Damage went through the roof but killing blows were down. I tweaked some now killing blows went way up and damage is good. I want the kill if I am on a target, whether it is chasing them down or in a group. Someone said high damage is better, I think not with all the heals now. Gotta get that kill, NEXT!

I have my macros set to let me key mash with a flow like someone said in a past post. If I get it right all my runes and blood tap macro to frost strike keeps me putting out pressure constantly. When I miss rotation and go oom, it comes back relatively quick, sorta like taking a deep breath, then jumping back in for a fight. Experience will teach you what to hit or which macro order works best. You have to spend runes to get the blood tap death rune back. The faster you can spend runes build runic power, frost strike, get back death runes keep up the rotation, you put out a lot of damage constantly. It is a rush to play DW, sorta addicting if you ask me. With a healer nothing can stop me, hehe.
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90 Orc Death Knight
10835
There is absolutely nothing wrong with DW, esp at higher levels.

Frost is meant for DW, not 2h. Threat of Thassarian, frost being the only spec that has it, tells us this.
Plus, if you have to reforge out of mastery on any class/spec, you're going to lose damage somewhere down the line and inhibit yourself in some way. EVERY class uses Mastery to its benefit except for 2h Frost. Why would you reforge out of a stat that that increases your Frost damage as a Frost DK?

I'm not saying that 2h is wrong, it's just another way to play the spec, but overall in the grand scheme of things, frost was meant to DW.
Edited by Jagatron on 5/26/2013 7:18 AM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
4885
Interesting to know, some insightful responses so far. If you were wondering why I would reforge out of mastery, well.. My gear is a muddled mess of unholy/frost/experiment right now. I don't play 2h frost and don't plan to, because I don't enjoy it very much. Since early wrath up until now I've gone back and fourth between a dw playstyle and unholy.
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90 Orc Death Knight
9710
05/26/2013 06:29 AMPosted by Yap
It is a rush to play DW, sorta addicting if you ask me.

I agree 100% After playing it for a few days I am hooked.

I tanked a few dungeons tonight for the satchels and was shocked at how slow Blood felt... it was actually pretty boring and I think DW has ruined me. I am going to have a hard time adjusting to the slower playstyle of Unholy if I ever have to go back again.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15165
The interesting dynamic by the more by the seat of your pants is the use of that unholy rune. Having to run through your brain things like boss position, DnD's cooldown, Disease up time, Future movement in the next 11-12 seconds, KM procs and the list goes on. Almost all of that has to be surveyed in snap so you can quickly use that unholy rune as best you can. For example the following;

----
RP flushed from having to rez an idiot so you only have say 5 RP.
KM Proc'd.
You have an unholy and Frost rune up.
DnD, Horn of Winter & Empowered Rune Weapon are on C/D
----

All of this screams to use Obliterate instead of Howling Blast. Now that is an extreme example just because I purposely put about any other RP gaining tools on cycle just to force it. But Obliterate will need to crit to make it compete since Obliterate tends to hit for 2/3rd's of a frost strike and the gap gets larger and larger as you get more mastery.

Obliterating all the time is not necessarily a good idea because it cuts off using HB which can do more damage than the main hits of either Frost Strike or Obliterate depending on your strength buffs. In fact a bit of the time Obliterate can total at non crit the damage of a HB. You definitely would not want to prioritize Obliterate above an HB while your higher strength buffs are proc'd. There is so many things to watch in the pipeline to do the highest dps you can as DW. Most hurt their dps more than they help it by just blindly using whatever lights up.
Edited by Tor on 5/27/2013 8:58 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11825
Is unholy really ahead of both frost specs right now? I just came back a few days ago and I have a two hander the same item level as both my dual wield items, so I wouldnt mind giving unholy a try if thats the case.
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90 Human Death Knight
16990
89191892691:
Is unholy really ahead of both frost specs right now? I just came back a few days ago and I have a two hander the same item level as both my dual wield items, so I wouldnt mind giving unholy a try if thats the case.


The short answer is "yes." Unholy > 2h F > DW F. But DKs in general are in a poor place right now, scaling terribly with gear.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15165
Yeah besides a few bosses like Tortos where our Diseases help to avoid aoe DR compared to some other classes? There is grass is greener in other classes. Unholy had more of an advantage especially in min/max guilds getting tricks which was nerfed. The strength nerf (a tiny one really) was just to help level the playing field for us. We're not necessarily the worst dps but we're not the best either. Honestly even going unholy won't necessarily change things unless you're really playing them to their fullest. DW Frost is easy to screw up and it can be argued so is Unholy. For those that slip up often I'd almost suggest being 2 handed Frost just because user error likely hinders them the least.

If you are trying to be a DK to be the most OP class in PvE? Don't let LFR or whatever else fool you. We're not that amazing. We're even borderline gear dependent because some gear can make or break you. Like having too much crit and too little of your main secondary and so on.
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90 Human Death Knight
8630
88909095062:
Dual wield sucks, frost dks in general suck, DKs on a whole are mediocre in DPS.

Red Sox suck, Yankees suck, Krypton sucks
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