How can I be more useful on this fight?

90 Night Elf Priest
5045
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/m7ed8i5uq07gj36a/sum/healingDone/?s=4811&e=5403

Iron Qon 10m Heroic.

Any ideas? This fight has a lot going on and I don't feel like I'm being as effective as I can be.

We have melee take 10 stacks (9 if our dps push it) so on the last stack I am using PW: Barrier and Spirit Shell.

But other than that, I don't really have any ideas of how to be more useful during this fight.
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
11920
(Wow, this sure turned into a huge wall of text.)

1. You're frequently clipping the last tick of penance by starting another spell before it finishes channeling. You can solve this by using nochanneling macros for other abilities or adjusting your custom lag tolerance in interface options (or just hitting the next ability slightly later).

2. Too often you seem to get locked into smite spamming at the expense of higher priority spells such as penance, solace or PoM. For example near the end of the fight (during the last stack phase) PoM used all of its charges and it was 45 seconds until you put a new one out. A quick check I do when looking at logs is: if you did more smite damage than penance damage (or really, if they are even close to each other), you probably did something wrong unless you are using a huge amount of defensive penance or are quite literally doing nothing but atonement. Comparing your log to mine on Iron Qon last week:

You had 84 offensive penance ticks and 19 defensive penance ticks in 9:51, and 111 smites.
I had 97 offensive penance ticks and 21 defensive penance ticks in 6:53, and 60 smites.

Penance is about three times the hps and three times the hpm of smite, so if you're missing opportunities to use it and are smiting instead, you're losing an enormous amount of healing.

3. You only used inner focus three times of which one was on the pull. Macro it to PoH or something (or at the very least into SS) - that's far better than not using it and is pretty close to optimal as in most situations where you want to cast PoH there is some sustained damage going out that will make the shields effective.

4. You often have delay between using off-gcd abilities and the spell that follows them. For example:

[19:39:50.288] Naérdriel begins to cast Smite
[19:39:51.623] Naérdriel casts Smite on Iron Qon
[19:39:52.923] Naérdriel casts Power Infusion
[19:39:54.079] Naérdriel begins to cast Prayer of Healing

and

[19:40:25.288] Naérdriel begins to cast Smite
[19:40:26.735] Naérdriel casts Smite on Iron Qon
[19:40:27.184] Naérdriel casts Archangel
[19:40:27.502] Naérdriel casts Spirit Shell
[19:40:28.720] Naérdriel begins to cast Prayer of Healing

There's two seconds (almost 2.5 in the first example) between the end of the smite and when you actually cast PoH - basically an entire extra PoH cast. Compare this to:

[00:41:52.752] Amabella casts Penance
[00:41:53.652] Amabella casts Penance
[00:41:54.539] Amabella casts Penance
[00:41:54.646] Amabella gains Archangel from Amabella
[00:41:54.646] Amabella casts Archangel
[00:41:54.894] Amabella gains Spirit Shell from Amabella
[00:41:54.894] Amabella casts Spirit Shell
[00:41:54.894] Amabella casts Inner Focus
[00:41:55.123] Amabella begins to cast Prayer of Healing

Yes, IF is macro'd into SS (in addition to being its own key).

5. Your PoH overheal numbers are actually quite low which suggests that your raid isn't spending most of the time topped off (and that maybe you can PoH more and smite less, unless your goal is to add damage) - remember that during random non-threatening aoe SS-PoH is still better than regular PoH due to decreased overheal and there's no harm in using SS and then only getting a couple PoH out of it if it'll be back up in time for the next "required" use. For example I'll sometmies do something like PW:S -> SS+IF+PoH -> Penance -> PoM -> SSPoH -> Solace -> SSPoH during moderate damage. Yes, I didn't get the maximum shielding out of my SS, but it's still better than reactively casting PoH after damage has occurred, and all I lost was some smites as I'm still using my strong offensive abilities close to on cooldown. Of course, if the damage is low enough that you can just do damage; do that and let the other healers top people off.

Technical skill & macro + aura / timer setup is a lot more important than most people think about (and it's something that many top PVE / PVPers take for granted). Most raiding priests understand that hitting penance and solace on cd, getting rapture as often as possible, and keeping PoM up (but not overwriting an existing one) are good things, but there is often a large gap between theory and practise when it comes to actually executing this during an encounter. Minimizing this difference is one of the easiest ways to drastically increase throughput.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
9585
I was going to do the whole in-depth wol analysis, but Amabella covered that better then I could have, so instead I'll ask, Have you considered going holy for this fight?

I'm not saying you need to by any means, but I saw in other threads that you are interested in expanding your playstyle and mastery of holy, and iron qon is arguably one of the better fights this tier for you to try it out. You are running with a pally and shammy, so tank heals should be pretty well covered, and the fact that you are 3healing him makes it one of the easier heroic fights from a healing standpoint, which would make it the perfect time to experiment with a different spec. Also, holy completely destroys the last phase. Just food for thought!
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
I know they want the disc for the fight, and it's not entirely my call in that matter.

Amabella, thank you many times over for the clear cut analysis. I'll pick up everything that you suggested, and take some time to digest what has been written here.

Thank you both. I'll edit in a bit with my thoughts.

Your wall of text was extremely appreciated.

Questions:

Do you think a lot of the delay could be eliminated by binding skills together? How does one do this (I'm not entirely macro savy)

I'm "afraid" to use PoH, is the best way to put it. I've always felt atonement was a better option, but looking at this, it's obvious that in med-high damage, atonement is poop and I should use the better skills available to me.

What happens when you bind talents into a single key and then swap them out? For example ToF vs PI?

89192892228:
Technical skill & macro + aura / timer setup is a lot more important than most people think about (and it's something that many top PVE / PVPers take for granted). Most raiding priests understand that hitting penance and solace on cd, getting rapture as often as possible, and keeping PoM up (but not overwriting an existing one) are good things, but there is often a large gap between theory and practise when it comes to actually executing this during an encounter. Minimizing this difference is one of the easiest ways to drastically increase throughput.


This is exactly it. The theory is there, in my brain, but getting the brain to the encounter is providing me with quite the challenge.
Edited by Naérdriel on 5/28/2013 11:57 AM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
9585
89191892595:
I'm "afraid" to use PoH, is the best way to put it. I've always felt atonement was a better option, but looking at this, it's obvious that in med-high damage, atonement is poop and I should use the better skills available to me.

What happens when you bind talents into a single key and then swap them out? For example ToF vs PI?


If raid damage is such that PoH can hit without massive overheal, by all means use it! It is still a good tool, even outside of SS.

By ToF, do you mean twist of fate? Because that's a passive. In general though, I try to reserve 2 keybinds that float depending on my talents. The first is my cascade/divine star/halo bind (for cascade I keep a mouseover macro that I pull out whenever I use it), and the second is for power infusion.
Edited by Mythrose on 5/28/2013 12:11 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
What I meant is that If I bind PI to PoH, when I remove PI, will that totally make the macro junk/will I have to rewrite it?

Edit: I obviously knew I was doing something wrong, so thanks both of you for laying it down plainly for me.

So is an acceptable style of play to use Solace to build AA, use penance on CD, and only smite spam during very low damage times?

Use AA to boost my PoM, PoH that way?
Edited by Naérdriel on 5/28/2013 12:16 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
9585
89192192422:
What I meant is that If I bind PI to PoH, when I remove PI, will that totally make the macro junk/will I have to rewrite it?


Ah, ok. I'd really advise against this. Directly answering your question, yes I "believe" it should work. Generally speaking, though, you take power infusion because you want extra throughput at specific points of the fight, and macro'ing PI to PoH will almost guarantee you won't have it up when you want it.

Edit: sure, during low damage phases you want to put out enough healing to satisfy the encounter's demands while maintaining as high a hpm as possible. During low damage phase shield for rapture, solace and penance on cd, refresh PoM when its charges are used up, and fill any remaining healing with smite as needed. In general though, I would focus on refining your healing in high damage phases, as that is where min/maxing will yield the greatest benefits
Edited by Mythrose on 5/28/2013 12:38 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
Yeah, on second thought, that'd only work with my *old and bad* style of play.

New week, new raid lock out, new naer.

I think part of the bad habits come from healing normal. I know that sounds terrible but I didn't find any of the fights (save for maybe Lei Shen) to be all that healing intensive. The jump in difficult from normal to heroic has poked holes in my gameplay, and I fully intended to fix it asap.

Much better to bind Inner Focus to PoH, honestly--it would seem, as Amabella suggested.

I think I get stuck in the "smite harder" since it's always worked for me, since most encounters were overhealed/low damage.

Thank you.
Edited by Naérdriel on 5/28/2013 12:34 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
11920
89191892595:
Do you think a lot of the delay could be eliminated by binding skills together? How does one do this (I'm not entirely macro savy)


Some of it (such as SS + IF), but if you bind too many things together you'll limit your options. For example, if you bind SS + AA + IF together, it'll sometimes make you pop AA with less than 5 stacks. While I was learning new binds though, I had a macro that was "SS + IF + start PoH" and a modifier for the ability that was "just pop SS" since most of the time you are using SS your next hard cast ability is PoH.

The best thing is to put your off-gcd and high use abilities in places you can hit them with no or very minimal hand movement. I've basically bound the entire left half of the keyboard three times over (modifiers). After that it's just muscle memory.

You can bind any number of off-gcd abilities together in the same macro, but only one on-gcd ability (unless you make a castsequence, which is not usually a good idea).

For example (something similar to the macro I mentioned earlier), you could do:

#show Spirit Shell
/cast Spirit Shell
/cast Inner Focus
/cast [@mouseover, exists, help, nochanneling] [nochanneling] Prayer of Healing
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

which would basically let you start hitting that key as you were casting penance without risk of clipping the last tick and as soon as the penance cast finished you would pop SS, IF, and start casting PoH. The last line eliminates the "not ready" error text that you get from pressing something that's on cd.

89191892595:
I'm "afraid" to use PoH, is the best way to put it. I've always felt atonement was a better option, but looking at this, it's obvious that in med-high damage, atonement is poop and I should use the better skills available to me.


Well, remember that (even more so after the nerf) the bad atonement spell is smite. You should pretty much always penance and solace on cd. During high damage you stop smiting and instead use PoH when you would have smited, but still use all your "good" abilities with higher priority.

A good way to practise this is to try healing using only abilities with a cooldown. You are only allowed to do the following:

Shield for rapture or on tanks.
Penance.
Solace.
PoM.
L90 talent.
In addition, you can cast anything you want while SS is active.

Try it in lfr or on a farm fight - I think you'll be surprised how much healing those abilities do (or rather, how little of your healing smite does). I knew this was happening, but wasn't aware of just how big the difference was until one week I healed heroic Will of the Emperor using only atonement, pom and cascade (fight was on farm), and after the fight only ~15% of my healing was from smite (and the resulting aegis) even though it accounted for close to 50% of my active time. I don't remember the numbers exactly, but the difference was pretty striking - I think I wrote a post about it at some point so maybe google can find it.

The benefit of healing without fillers is that you have nothing to distract you from hitting your strong abilities on cd. From there to "real healing" is really just filling in the gaps between your short-cd abilities with smite, PoH, or PW:S depending on the type of damage.

89191892595:
What happens when you bind talents into a single key and then swap them out? For example ToF vs PI?


Make a macro like the following:

#show
/cast [help] [@targettarget, help] cascade
/cast divine star
/cast halo
/script m_c=GetSpellInfo(121135); m_ds=GetSpellInfo(110744); m_h=GetSpellInfo(120517)
/run SetMacroSpell("Aoe Heal",GetSpellInfo(m_c) or GetSpellInfo(m_ds) or GetSpellInfo(m_h))

This will automatically update itself to whatever your currently selected level 90 talent is the first time you press it after retalenting. You can adapt it for other talents (or other classes) by changing the spell names and IDs.

If you make a macro for a single talent and then spec out of it, the macro stays on your bars without the icon properly displayed until you log out, at which point the space on your bars becomes empty. (I'm using bartender4 so maybe this works differently with other addons.)
Edited by Amabella on 5/28/2013 12:42 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
9585
You answered your own question!
89192492520:
Yeah, on second thought, that'd only work with my *old and bad* style of play.


I personally don't like binding IF to PoH. I tend to use it as a single target tank buffer then as a hps boost to PoH, and binding it to PoH would severely limit that. Numerically speaking though, IF is best used on PoH, no question.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
I'm going to try the exercise tonight, as well as go to grid + clique to try it out. I'm currently clicking the elvui party frames (but I have a naga mouse) so while the motion is very quick, I don't think it's precise enough.

Also, it's a terrible habit.

89192892228:
[00:41:52.752] Amabella casts Penance
[00:41:53.652] Amabella casts Penance
[00:41:54.539] Amabella casts Penance


Does this indicate 3 tics of penance then? And additionally, in theory, one shouldn't need to smite much at all considering the CD of archangel. I think it's coming clear why smite is so weak comparatively. There really isn't a need to use it to build AA, it really serves as a "Well, I don't want to stand here and cast nothing"

Oomph, and for the newbist question of them all

3 ticks = 1 evangelism
or
3 ticks = 3 evangelism

I know 3 ticks = 3 grace, but I was fairly certain its 1 whole penance to 1 whole evangelism

89191092477:
IF is best used on PoH, no question.


Yeah, I either was using it on atonement spam or PoH with spirit shell. Yikes.

Last night I had to heal with wonky frames though. Elvui had updated and it has group 1 and group two on top of one another ,the only way to separate it was to have them extremely far away from one another. (half the screen away).
Edited by Naérdriel on 5/28/2013 12:51 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
11920
89192192422:
What I meant is that If I bind PI to PoH, when I remove PI, will that totally make the macro junk/will I have to rewrite it?


The macro will still cast PoH, but as already mentioned I wouldn't make PI automatically go off if it's available every time you cast PoH as you'll end up wasting PI sometimes.

If you were going to make a macro like that, I'd keep a bind for "regular PoH" and make "PI + PoH" my PI bind that I would not use if I didn't have PI. That way I could cast PoH without popping PI, and if I pop PI it automatically starts PoH. (Still not convinced this is a good idea though, as there will be times when you want to use PI for something other than PoH.)
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
89191292549:
(Still not convinced this is a good idea though, as there will be times when you want to use PI for something other than PoH.)


I agree on second thought.

Inner Focus into PoH is much much better.
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
11920
89192192493:
Does this indicate 3 tics of penance then? And additionally, in theory, one shouldn't need to smite much at all considering the CD of archangel. I think it's coming clear why smite is so weak comparatively. There really isn't a need to use it to build AA, it really serves as a "Well, I don't want to stand here and cast nothing"


Yes, that's 3 ticks of penance.

If you're healing during extremely high raid damage then yes you very rarely smite and can still use enough offensive abilities to use AA on cooldown.

Smite is a "last resort", yes. Everything else useful is on cd and there's not enough damage going out for you to need to cast PoH or PW:S.

89192192493:
Yeah, I either was using it on atonement spam or PoH with spirit shell. Yikes.


This doesn't make sense. IF won't get consumed by atonement (it'll just stay on you until you cast the next thing it affects) and using it on SS-PoH is fine (and good - it makes SS the same size as the total heal + aegis would have been if you had used IF outside of SS).
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
11920
89192192493:
3 ticks = 1 evangelism


This one.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
89192092559:
89192192493:
Yeah, I either was using it on atonement spam or PoH with spirit shell. Yikes.

This doesn't make sense. IF won't get consumed by atonement (it'll just stay on you until you cast the next thing it affects) and using it on SS-PoH is fine (and good - it makes SS the same size as the total heal + aegis would have been if you had used IF outside of SS).


ERr, I meant power infusion.

I totally messed up on that one.

Another thing I noticed is when we popped hero, the other healers really pushed strong throughput and I stayed (abysmally so) pretty consistent with respect to earlier eHPS. That makes me think that I lost out on a lot of raid wide healing to smite spam, looking at the numbers alone.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
9585
89192192493:
3 ticks = 1 evangelism
or
3 ticks = 3 evangelism


it's the former, you get one stack of evangelism per cast of penance, regardless of how many ticks of penance actually go out.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
Thanks to both of you.

I'll give all of this a go this week, hopefully I'll see significant improvement.
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
11920
89193492441:
Another thing I noticed is when we popped hero, the other healers really pushed strong throughput and I stayed (abysmally so) pretty consistent with respect to earlier eHPS. That makes me think that I lost out on a lot of raid wide healing to smite spam, looking at the numbers alone.


Yes, you should see peaks when you use SS (especially if you bookend it with divine star, although in a raid with a shaman + paladin it seems hard to imagine you needing more stacked healing so cascade for the earlier parts of the fight makes sense).

Also I forgot to mention it, but you can of course use PI, IF, AA etc when you're doing the cooldowns only thing. Also fiend / hymn, although I doubt you'll be able to run yourself OOM.

Mythrose's decription of evangelism is more accurate than my lazy quote - you get the evangelism stack on the first tick (and it affects the next two).
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
5045
Interesting.

Yes, originally I had taken ToF and Divine Star for that fight, but after our first wipe I realized that was an incredibly poor choice. It was... in fact, overkill. Cascade was able to help us out on the first phases where we are spread. The most room for error for us lies there.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]