How much spirit is to much?

90 Human Monk
8880
At the beginning of MoP I went out of my way & bought 2 stacks of spirit gems. Gemmed all my gear straight spirit and had about 11k and even then it wasn't enough for me really.

Now when I'm healing dungeons/LFR (I know its not normals/heroics but with my deployment soon I can't commit to a guild just to disappoint them) I'm pretty much always above 70% mana.

Back at the beginning of cataclysm my old GM used to say who was a holy paladin as I was at the time said, "If you have any mana left over, you didn't heal enough." We weren't benched or anything for it, but I mean if we had like 100% mana yeah something was gonna happen then.

So I come to you internet, how much spirit is to much? I'm sitting a little above 10k and I feel like I'm always topped off on mana unless I have to chain IC surging mists. I don't like to fistweave after the change to jabs mana cost and I do just fine without it. If I have to much, should I be reforging my spirit into crit? Am I at the haste breakpoint with the 5% haste buff? Maybe mastery again like at the beginning of MoP?

EDIT: Will be posting this in the monk forums as well for more answers.
Edited by Jirat on 5/24/2013 11:45 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
15480
No real answer. You want to end a fight with as little mana as possible.
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90 Human Monk
8880
No real answer. You want to end a fight with as little mana as possible.


So I'm not being snotty or anything, but are you saying I need to do better? Or just reduce my spirit by personal means?
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
Well, if you're still wary of Jabbing despite your lack of mana troubles, I don't know what to tell you.

Also, there is no "hard and fixed right amount of Spirit" for any healing class. It's immensely different from one healer to the next. The best you can do is to replace your gems one by one, and stop replacing them if you feel that you're getting close to burning low on mana frequently.

If you replace all of your gems and still feel like you've got too much Spirit, start reforging it off your gear one piece at a time... or equip Spiritless gear one piece at a time.
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90 Human Monk
8880
I was considering doing the gemming idea, but I wanted to ask the generality of healing to see if we had an aim or not.
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90 Human Paladin
15480
05/24/2013 11:57 AMPosted by Jirat
but are you saying I need to do better?


Nope. Just saying there is no correct answer as to how much spirit one needs.

Or just reduce my spirit by personal means?


If you are ending fights over 50% mana it would be a good idea to gem int/secondary stats as opposed to more spirit.
Edited by Taelaus on 5/24/2013 12:03 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
Nope :)

Certainly not for 5man/LFR content. If you start doing normal modes, you'll want to up your Spirit from whatever you've brought it down to, but again... there's no magic number anyone can give you. "Stack it until you don't need any more in current content" is the only way to answer your question.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
05/24/2013 11:57 AMPosted by Jirat
No real answer. You want to end a fight with as little mana as possible.


So I'm not being snotty or anything, but are you saying I need to do better? Or just reduce my spirit by personal means?


A lot of Monks that I know are sitting somewhere between 9 and 10k. One thing to keep in mind is that you need to keep your Expertise cap (which is granted by Spirit) correct for Fistweaving, so there is a point that you should not drop past if you want to Fistweave. I'm not sure that I would gem pure Spirit as a Mistweaver, but I guess my biggest question is...how do you feel, as a Monk, when you heal?

Are you feeling like you're struggling for mana? If so, more Spirit probably won't hurt you. But you might also benefit from getting some better trinkets, such as the Relic of Chi-Ji (which, when fully upgraded, outstrips every trinket in T14 until Heroic Spirits of the Sun). You might also consider picking up the Shadow-Pan trinket with the on-use mana-return. Macro it to your Jab/SooM/ReM so it is used as soon as it comes off CD. Giving yourself a little more Int will improve both your cast heals and the heals you get from Fistweaving.

As your gear improves, you'll get more and more Spirit out of it. One thing I would suggest is that you transition some of those pure Spirit gems into Purified Imperial Amethysts (Int/Spirit) and see if you feel worse off.

Your "correct" level of Spirit is very much going to depend on your playstyle, your raid group, what kind of co-healer you have, etc. If you have someone you are making up for, you may actually need more Spirit than another Monk because you're having to do more than your share of healing.

Edited because: Apparently my brain briefly decided we were still in Dragon Soul xD
Edited by Tiriel on 5/24/2013 12:06 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
One thing to keep in mind is that you need to keep your Expertise cap correct for Fistweaving (which is granted by Spirit), so there is a point that you can't drop past.


damn, good point, Tiriel!

Except his question is that he has *too much* mana regen atm, and he's doing 5man/LFR exclusively.
Edited by Ellarix on 5/24/2013 12:06 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
05/24/2013 12:05 PMPosted by Ellarix
One thing to keep in mind is that you need to keep your Expertise cap correct for Fistweaving (which is granted by Spirit), so there is a point that you can't drop past.


damn, good point, Tiriel!


I wouldn't have even thought about it except that Mist wailed a lot when he couldn't drop past that point.
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
I wouldn't have even thought about it except that Mist wailed a lot when he couldn't drop past that point.


yeah, once you brought it up, I remembered that too.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13490
First: thanks for your service! I'm heading to Navy Basic myself sometime in the next few months.

On topic: You have two options right now. You can choose to play more aggressively and push your mana harder. Or you can choose to cut back on Spirit by swapping out for throughput gems. In dungeons/LFR, you may not see anything more conclusive than having less mana at the end of the fight.

If you're looking for more challenging content that doesn't require long term commitment, I'd consider Challenge Mode dungeons, pugs or http://openraid.us/.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
The trinket/crit chance/legendary meta factors make for huge swings in mana regen/mana tea/mana consumption...

The answer is 15k spirit minus the following:
-(%buffed crit chance)*100
-trinket proc average spirit values
-5k if you have the legendary meta

With the catch that your Spirit should never go below 5100 if you want to be hit/exp capped for fistweaving.

You currently have:
-(16% buffed crit chance)*100 = 1600
-Vial is ~900 spirit = 900
-no meta
Therefore you have too much spirit if you have over 12500 spirit.

Constrasted that to a better geared player like our 524 ilvl monk w/ 2/2 H-Horridon's.
-(26% crit chance)*100 = 2600
-2/2 H-Horridon Trinket = 2600
-522 Valor Trinket = 1300
-no meta
So for him having more than 8500 spirit would be considered too much spirit. He's at 7.5k.

It may not be a *PERFECT* number. But it's the best estimate I can give you as your gear morphs through time and ilvl.
Edited by Pitkanen on 5/24/2013 12:47 PM PDT
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90 Human Monk
8880
The trinket/crit chance/legendary meta factors make for huge swings in mana regen/mana tea/mana consumption...

The answer is 15k spirit minus the following:
-(%buffed crit chance)*100
-trinket proc average spirit values
-5k if you have the legendary meta

With the catch that your Spirit should never go below 5100 if you want to be hit/exp capped for fistweaving.

You currently have:
-(16% buffed crit chance)*100 = 1600
-Vial is ~900 spirit = 900
-no meta
Therefore you have too much spirit if you have over 12500 spirit.

Constrasted that to a better geared player like our 524 ilvl monk w/ 2/2 H-Horridon's.
-(26% crit chance)*100 = 2600
-2/2 H-Horridon Trinket = 2600
-522 Valor Trinket = 1300
-no meta
So for him having more than 8500 spirit would be considered too much spirit. He's at 7.5k.

It may not be a *PERFECT* number. But it's the best estimate I can give you as your gear morphs through time and ilvl.


So after reading this post a few times to understand a few things, heres what I got from it.

I have to much spirit for my ilevel, I believe and that I need to bump it down a bit. At higher ilevels I will be gaining spirit from non-traditional ways (trinket procs/on-use trinkets/mana tea).

What I didnt understand is, as bad as it sounds most of it. I know theres kind of answer in there somewhere, but I'm not seeing it.

I apologize
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
So after reading this post a few times to understand a few things, heres what I got from it.

I have to much spirit for my ilevel, I believe and that I need to bump it down a bit. At higher ilevels I will be gaining spirit from non-traditional ways (trinket procs/on-use trinkets/mana tea).

What I didnt understand is, as bad as it sounds most of it. I know theres kind of answer in there somewhere, but I'm not seeing it.

I apologize


Your spirit level is fine. When I said that most Mistweavers were sitting at 9-10k Spirit before getting the Meta gem and the Horridon trinket, I wasn't kidding.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
It's ok. My number spam is not usually the most effective way to explain things to people who don't <3 number spam.

You currently have 10.3k static spirit. You get another ~900 spirit from your trinket proc. You also get the equiv of about 1600 spirit due to your crit chance causing mana tea to crit-proc. Add these up and you are comfortable below the 15k spirit cut off.

So basically, you don't have too much spirit right now. Based on my rough mathing you are about 2k spirit away from having too much. That being said... there is a space between "too much" and "enough" spirit where players push back and forth until they find their comfort level. You are currently above "enough" regen but below "too much" regen.
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90 Human Monk
8880
I should also note my gear is going to change from today/tomorrow as I'm currently running LFR for upgrades. I have been lazy the last 2 weeks about enchants/gems but I figured this weekend is pretty free for me so I'm gonna be clearing out that issue.

@Pitkanen - Thank you for clearing that up. I personally think I have to much spirit for the content I'm doing. If I plan to do challenge modes & such I will change up my gems but for LFR I think I'm gonna drop about 1k spirit and see how I feel. Thanks for the input I'll be bookmarking this for future reference.
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90 Night Elf Druid
6080
as long as you can handle boss fights without losing all your mana going OOM including popping all mana regen CD's and keeping those popped off every CD when need then you should end up with little mana on current raids. if you are going OOM half way into the fight already it's either because your rotation sucks or you don't have enough spirit or you are not popping mana regen cd's.

healers don't really have set rotations unlike say DPS you pretty much have the basics. Hots, large heals, small hjeals, slow heals, fast heals, then your cd's to save people, aoe heals, etc.. you need to figure out what spells to use at what time it's not like dps where you apply say dots, spam 1 move until something procs, then hit cd's.

also i highly suggest if you have trinkets with cd's don't use auto pop trinkets thats probably the worst thing to do as a healer relying on your healbot to auto trinket when it isn't needed. learn to manually pop cd's on trinkets urself so they are not wasted. you pretty much will know when you don't have enough mana and thats when you are having a HARD time healing every single raid/fight. you should also learn how to play tank specs/dps specs as well to know what your tanks and dps in your group are doing wrong as it's not always the healers fault for wiping. more then likely people will blame you but often it's either dps or tanks fault for doing the wrong rotation and not popping cd's when and if needed
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90 Pandaren Monk
12185
Personally I like to sit between 6-6.5k, anymore is a waste. If your just hitting a haste breakpoint and then loading up into crit you'll be fine as you get double mana tea equal to your crit chance. I know it seems like very little but its actually the ideal amount because you get so much more throughput on all your small hots with the high crit chance.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
There is no right numerical answer because there are too many variables that apply. Several have been mentioned in this thread: trinkets? legendary meta?

Others were not mentioned: content? raid group make-up (mana tides can greatly change how much spirit you need for example)? role you are performing as far as healing assignments? how well geared the group is, how good at avoiding bad, etc...

The right answer is "high enough that at the end of the fight you still have a little mana left and low enough that you don't have a near-full bar".
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