Prot pally threat issues

90 Blood Elf Paladin
10605
Ok, first off I know I am still gearing this toon, and my stats certainly aren't the greatest yet. I only have about 6% expertise so far, but I am at least hit capped. I've been running heroics and I am just barely able to keep ahead of dps on threat (and I'm definitely not missing much because I'm watching my holy power generation). I know I don't have all my gear enchanted yet, but I don't really feel like wasting enchants on gear that's less than 463.

For example, I just did temple of the jade serpent, and the highest my threat hit on sha of doubt was 169%. This is pretty much using everything I have.

At first I thought I forgot to put righteous fury on, but it's definitely on, I even clicked it off and reapplied it in case there was some issue with that. Am I just running into overgeared DPS blowing all their cooldowns, or am I doing something wrong? I'm not having any survivability issues, just threat.
Edited by Tarranth on 5/25/2013 9:35 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Warrior
14190
Am I just running into overgeared DPS blowing all their cooldowns
Without knowing what else was happening, yes, probably. What DPS were they pulling vs yours?
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Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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90 Orc Shaman
10620
It seems like even relatively low dps can pull off of me pretty easily, that's what's odd. I haven't run into this issue on my druid or monk tanks, just my paladin.
Edited by Mogrigg on 5/25/2013 11:21 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Warrior
14190
It seems like even relatively low dps can pull off of me pretty easily, that's what's odd. I haven't run into this issue on my druid or monk tanks, just my paladin.
Probably because you're a shaman. <_< >_>

*cough* But anyway. More hit/exp will probably help. They're your best mitigation stats until you cap them, and a missed or parried attack generates no threat. What sort of dps do you pull?
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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90 Orc Shaman
10620
05/25/2013 11:22 PMPosted by Waniou
It seems like even relatively low dps can pull off of me pretty easily, that's what's odd. I haven't run into this issue on my druid or monk tanks, just my paladin.
Probably because you're a shaman. <_< >_>

*cough* But anyway. More hit/exp will probably help. They're your best mitigation stats until you cap them, and a missed or parried attack generates no threat. What sort of dps do you pull?
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859


It varies wildly depending on vengeance. But I'm usually about in the middle of the dps (if there are terrible DPS in the group I will be above them). DPS does seem like it might be lower than my druid or monk, but not so much lower that I don't generate threat. It's probably like you say, and due to hit/exp (although I am hit capped, am nowhere near exp capped).

Oops, didn't realize I changed posting toons.

One thing that MAY be an issue, is spell hit. What exactly do you have to do to make sure spell hit gets capped at 15% on a paladin? I'm pretty sure there is some sort of passive that converts hit/exp into spell hit, but I can't find it in my passives list. And several things that prot paladins use ARE spells, so that's probably my issue. In my prot gear, I'm sitting at 13.68% spell hit. What do I need to make sure that's at 15? 7.5% of both hit AND exp? I'm still a little low on exp. Normally I'm good at finding the passives that make stuff like that work, but in this case I can't find it!
Edited by Mogrigg on 5/26/2013 12:07 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Warrior
14190
I'm pretty sure there is some sort of passive that converts hit/exp into spell hit, but I can't find it in my passives list
It's not listed in your passive abilities list, it's just a feature of expertise now. Once you get 15% hit+exp (It doesn't need to be 7.5% hit + 7.5% expertise, it can be, say, 5% hit and 10% expertise), you'll have enough spell hit.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
You don't need to worry about spell hit cap.

Avenger's Shield goes off ranged hit table and always has, since it was introduced in Wrath. Judgment is off melee hit table (functionally, these two are the same). And like Waniou said, expertise counts towards spell hit anyway.

Anyway, use your cooldowns on AoE packs. Holy Avenger is amazing for getting AoE threat, especially if you get some GrC procs as well. Holy Wrath>Consecration for snap AoE threat.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17180
Mostly it's probably iLvl 450ish vs. people at 500-520 iLvl. That's hard to overcome. You may just want to say 'gearing up, please let me hit things once or twice before you go off' at the start of each run.

Luckily dps with 500+ ilvl can tank most scenario and heroic mobs just fine.

And as others pointed out, hit and exp. caps are the first priority for both threat and active mitigation.
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
05/26/2013 08:40 AMPosted by Feanorion
My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I am almost certain that Avenger's Shield was around in TBC.
yeah, i forgot the whole cast time version of AS. that blew.

regardless, point is it's used the ranged hit table since at least Wrath, I dunno about TBC.

given AS's mass buffs over the course of expansions, I expect it to be an instakill ability with no cooldown, off the GCD next expansion
Edited by Kangarooster on 5/26/2013 9:26 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I also started out with low threat compared to my monk when I first started tanking. Single target 11k dps in my tanking rotation didn't provide much initial threat - especially with people pulling even 60k dps.

Generally I think Pally initial single and aoe target threat is not as high as my monk - there is a ramp up time. However once I get vengeance I start to pull a lot more threat. Problem is that heroic dungeon trash doesn't give much vengeance...

For AOE packs I had to change my opening moves to:

- Glyph ranged consecration and open with it at max range
- Then Avenger Shield
- Holy Wrath
- Cast Holy Prism on myself (use macro to cast on self)
- Hammer of the Rightous
- re-cast aoe moves as they come off coolodown

For single target boss fights I open with:

- Holy Avenger (talent)
- Avenging Wrath
- Avenger shield
- Chain cast Shield of the Righteous with your normal rotation until Holy Avenger wears off

By then you should have a sizable threat lead... hopefully :)

Although really I just had to basically get better gear.

Key is to get enough to be able to start to run LFR.

I had my guildies helping me:

1) chain run heroic dungeons (although not everyone has that kind of help available)
2) use valor to buy the 522 neck
3) Blacksmith craft the 496 chest and 496 gloves
4) Blacksmith craft 463 1-hander axe and shield or get 476 pvp shield
5) Engineering 450 trinket
6) Buy 476 trinket from AH

You can get that key from island to run that chest run instance to get a ton of elder tokens. Then use an elder token for each LFR boss.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I am almost certain that Avenger's Shield was around in TBC. It had a cast timer, so it was strictly a pull mechanism (I think I remember using AS+Exorcism to pull).


Minor nitpick: USing AS was a thing; it just required one of the addons that monitored the boss swing timer so you could get the cast off between swings.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12565
im a 533 prot paladin fully hit and exp capped, ive been a pally tank for YEARS...and i too am having retarded threat issues...paladins appear to have been nerfed shortly after ToT came out. prior to that i was an unkillable machine that my druid tank could not pull off of..now i cant pull off of him..even auto attacks from him steal my threat...
im not stupid, geared wrong, playing badly, or overlooking anything...from my perspective this issue is solely on the shoulders of blizzard to correct
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
4820
im a 533 prot paladin fully hit and exp capped, ive been a pally tank for YEARS...and i too am having retarded threat issues...paladins appear to have been nerfed shortly after ToT came out. prior to that i was an unkillable machine that my druid tank could not pull off of..now i cant pull off of him..even auto attacks from him steal my threat...
im not stupid, geared wrong, playing badly, or overlooking anything...from my perspective this issue is solely on the shoulders of blizzard to correct


except that you are geared kind of completely wrong. you have pieces that you can only get if you are loot specced to protection and you should almost never be loot specced to protection.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
13085
10/16/2013 01:53 AMPosted by Bobbydigital
you should almost never be loot specced to protection
This is a rather sad and disturbing state for paladins to be in.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
4820
10/16/2013 02:16 AMPosted by Denizi
you should almost never be loot specced to protection
This is a rather sad and disturbing state for paladins to be in.


that's nobodies fault but blizzard's. Our tier 16 now has haste on it but there still isn't a single piece of haste on our prot loot tables.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9385
If you're too lazy and cheap to bother enchanting your gear, I would bet you're too lazy to actually implement proper mechanics or to learn the fights.


That's a big leap of assumptions.
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90 Human Paladin
9215
im a 533 prot paladin fully hit and exp capped, ive been a pally tank for YEARS...and i too am having retarded threat issues...paladins appear to have been nerfed shortly after ToT came out. prior to that i was an unkillable machine that my druid tank could not pull off of..now i cant pull off of him..even auto attacks from him steal my threat...
im not stupid, geared wrong, playing badly, or overlooking anything...from my perspective this issue is solely on the shoulders of blizzard to correct


Just a FYI, last time I had 13% Haste was around ilvl 500...


This is a rather sad and disturbing state for paladins to be in.


that's nobodies fault but blizzard's. Our tier 16 now has haste on it but there still isn't a single piece of haste on our prot loot tables.


I think it makes it interesting. Forces you to think, like Siegecrafter who has both our BiS 1h weapon for Prot and our BiS ring on the Ret side.

10/19/2013 08:37 AMPosted by Policies
If you're too lazy and cheap to bother enchanting your gear, I would bet you're too lazy to actually implement proper mechanics or to learn the fights.


That's a big leap of assumptions.


While I agree with you it is, it's always those guys that have "trouble" with fight mechanics and rotations...

I know the plural of anecdote isn't fact but sometimes...
Edited by Berith on 10/19/2013 9:52 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
11855
Ok, first off I know I am still gearing this toon, and my stats certainly aren't the greatest yet. I only have about 6% expertise so far, but I am at least hit capped.


I find that when I'm hit capped and haste padded, it's much easier holding aggro. My DPS sucks, and I'm always near the bottom of the meters. But all the angry things still wave their hands in my face and snarl at me.

That's what needs to happen, so I'm fine with that. For now.

When I just hit 90, I had your problem only against blood spec DKs in blood presence....who were DPSing. But since 90, I have always been properly reforged/enchanted/gemmed before stepping into any instance or raid.

Now it's only a problem for a few seconds when some noob DPS decides to auto walk into a pack of mobs.
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