tooth and claw improvement

90 Worgen Druid
7905
This post isn't going to be as acerbic as my previous, but I saw the post before the edit and I couldn't resist.

You don't mention that Bears have too low rage income just once, it's enough of a major point in your argument that you have to bring it up... mm... like 3 times at least.
05/25/2013 08:21 AMPosted by Moonwarden
I also think the rage cost is a tad bit too high for maul
Perhaps if you're doing nothing but spamming maul at every tooth and claw procc at the expense of savage defense.
TaC trades off (at least momentarily) with our active mitigation/self heal capabilities.
Even with crap gear I have enough rage to keep SD up, FR intermittently, AND I still have rage left over to Maul. Seriously.


There's nothing factually inaccurate with what I said. I do think it's a tad high.. That doesn't mean it's too high to use when there's a TaC procc or that bears are rage starved. I personally believe it could be 5 rage less just so that maul, not just maul with a TaC procc, could become a more regular part of our rotation. That's still a far cry from saying my argument was that bears have low rage income.

The second statement is also factually true. To spam maul enough times to get a HUGE TaC shield during a momentary pause in boss melee swings (it's important for you to include the context) would require that you spam maul on every cooldown with TaC proccs which would require a fairly large chunk of rage which might preclude being able to cast savage defense. I was referring directly to a hypothetical you had come up with.

The third statement is also factually accurate. It "momentarily" trades off with a savage defense if you are at 40 rage and choose to maul for TaC procc and end up back at 10 within a second or two of savage defense falling off then you may need to go a swing or two from the boss before you can savage defense again. Smart bears should never be in that position, but it is, nonetheless, a possible momentary trade off.

But just to be clear because you seem to have a difficult time with not putting words in people's mouths (or at their fingertips), I never said rage income was too low. Nor was such a statement the basis for the suggestion in the original post. 2 of the three comments you choose to take out of context were in response to hypotheticals you came up with in which a bear would be investing so much rage into mauls in such a short time in order to build a huge TaC shield.
Edited by Moonwarden on 5/25/2013 12:49 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
05/25/2013 12:47 PMPosted by Moonwarden
I personally believe it could be 5 rage less just so that maul, not just maul with a TaC procc, could become a more regular part of our rotation.

It's not supposed to be. It's supposed to be what you spend Rage on when you have nothing else to spend it on. Granted it's possible that there can be situations where you don't want to use it and end up sitting there with a full Rage bar with nothing to press. However that's a different problem that will be looked at for 5.4.

To spam maul enough times to get a HUGE TaC shield during a momentary pause in boss melee swings (it's important for you to include the context) would require that you spam maul on every cooldown with TaC proccs which would require a fairly large chunk of rage which might preclude being able to cast savage defense. I was referring directly to a hypothetical you had come up with.

It requires like what....3.5 - 4 RPS tops. Saying that prevents you from using Savage Defense at all is just completely misleading.

It "momentarily" trades off with a savage defense if you are at 40 rage and choose to maul for TaC procc and end up back at 10 within a second or two of savage defense falling off then you may need to go a swing or two from the boss before you can savage defense again. Smart bears should never be in that position, but it is, nonetheless, a possible momentary trade off.

A situation you should never put yourself in doesn't actually count. The answer to that is always "just play better."

05/25/2013 12:47 PMPosted by Moonwarden
hypotheticals you came up with in which a bear would be investing so much rage into mauls in such a short time in order to build a huge TaC shield.

It takes like 2 to get a shield large enough to absorb a full melee swing? How is that "so much Rage"?
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13465
Y'all make bears sound interesting. Perhaps I should finally level mine. He's languishing at 20-something and is one of two classes I've never gotten to level cap and I at least got my rogue to BC content before tiring of him.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
This Druid was on the 13th attempt to level Druids, none of which made it to level 20. That was back in the days when the level 10 Talent thing didn't exist, so the interim period to level 20 was Bear Form.

Eventually after finally making it to 20 and learning Cat, hit 80 something like 2.5 /played days later.
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100 Night Elf Druid
6070
Granted it's possible that there can be situations where you don't want to use it and end up sitting there with a full Rage bar with nothing to press.


Lei Shi comes to mind. It's pretty frustrating to have SD be useless, get a new ability we can use to mitigate some damage... and then realize that in that same situation, TaC is *also* useless. IMO, that's the best argument for extending TaC to reduce more types of attacks -- not because there's something wrong with it for normal fights or you really need to reduce that Snapping Bite, but because there's a (small) category of fights where 2 out of 3 AM abilities are 100% useless and that's not cool or fun.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13465
Well, that's not a druid specific issue though. Lei Shi was an absolute nightmare for Paladins to tank, because not only did she ignore our primary AM move, our secondary one's usefulness is largely driven by us using SHoR much more frequently. Every time you use ShoR it gives a stacking buff to your next WoG, capping at 5. Using WoG no more than every 40-60 seconds with full stacks makes it powerful. Using it frequently with no stacks makes it feeble.

So, yeah, Lei Shi sucked for everyone.
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