Is anyone effectively running Fire Spec?

90 Worgen Mage
10500
06/05/2013 01:11 PMPosted by Aethereal
Fire is *the* RNG spec though. Our guild runs LFRs for Titan Runestones and higher ilvl Fire Mages sometimes completely obliterate me on fights but fall behind on other fights.

My point is it goes past the point of ilvl and crit. You always juggle with RNG with Fire and Frost will keep up till it runs into its scaling issues (which doesn't happen till you gear heroic)

I'm pushing 530 ilvl and fire still can't pull ahead of frost. They're both pretty close, but fire has a bunch of annoying RNG involved whereas frost doesn't.

Fire's RNG is so overblown on this board it's insane. At my crit level, I've got an 80%~ chance to crit between a fireball and pyroblast, so 8/10 Heating Ups provide a Hot Streak. That's only when IB isn't available. There's not wild swings if you're playing correctly any longer, it just requires 4 piece.

06/05/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Kaikou
I consistently rank top 100 in WoL as frost, which may not mean much considering mages tend to go fire by the time they're at my gear level, but I can say for sure that even if fire does pull ahead at some point, it isn't by much.
Kaikou, you're consistently parsing in the 95%+ percentile as Frost, and the week's worth of logs you have as fire are under the 90th percentile. The exceptions being Horridon, which was your best parse of Horridon to that point, and Ji-Kun. On Ji-Kun your median percentile as Frost is 99%. That sounds to me like you're simply playing better as Frost than you are as Fire, especially considering that aside from that one week, the last parse raidbots is showing for you as fire is from November.

I don't think there's a significant difference between Frost and Fire once you've got 4 piece at all, and I think most people here who are upset about RNG either a) don't have 4 piece, or b) don't play fire to the level it's capable of being played to. I'm only in Normal gear, and I don't feel like there's a significant swing on anything except possibly your opening combust, if you get exceptionally unlucky.


You do realize that 80% crit does not mean that 8/10, 16/20 or 80/100 heating ups will result in hot streak? EVERY cast has an 80% chance to crit. I can have 90% effective crit and cast 10 fireballs and get 0 crits. Welcome to probability. Let me put it in real-life: the 100 year flood does not mean it will happen every 100 years. It simply means that EVERY YEAR there is a 1 in 100 chance for it to happen. Consider this your schooling for the summer.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
17945
also dont gem for intellect, gem for crit, look at my gems and forges and you will see.

you get double the crit from a gem than you do int/SP and int and SP are not double the stat weight. besides the fact that it doesnt matter how hard you hit if you dont crit, you cant do your actual rotation.


The reason I have right now more int gems then straight crit is because the other fire mage is consistently getting average higher hits that I am, and not by a small amount either. In fact the difference is so substantial that it caused me to attempt to adjust for more SP hence more int.

For example, my stats during a raid are equal with him in terms of Crit (~41.7%) so other than the obvious RNG this causes he and I are neck and neck at crit. He however started as a frost mage and most of the gear he had was haste related, so he was building items for crit to make up for it. I originally had about 2% more crit, and can do so again if I gem back for it. Consequently he has 4% more haste than I do. On the flip side, I have almost 1k more SP than him.

In one of our raids this week, this was the damage breakdown of the FB and Pyro direct damage:

Frozen: 16 129643.2 2074292 37 285360.4 10558333
Virtutis: 18 113685.2 2046333 31 248976.5 7718270

The above is the Pyros of on of our attempts on Megaera Heroic. We have almost identical uptimes on Livimg Bomb so it is not a 10% damage debuff issue. This is also happening on every fight so it is not a RNG issue, or bad luck.

You will note that in total we had 53 and 49 Pyros respectively, which can be explained from RNG and crit, particularly as we have the same crit levels. The important and critical aspect is the damage difference for the average hits. He is averaging almost 10% harder hits with the Crits. This log was also actually closer than others. At this damage difference, spread over a much longer boss, the damage differences becomes more and more pronounced.

Consequently I attempted to gain some SP and lose a bit of crit because gaining crit was doing nothing to increase the damage done. While crit is important and the primary stat, there is more to it than that.

We were looking at our two characters:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/nagrand/Virtutis/simple
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/nagrand/Frozenflarex/simple

And overall, the primary differences was the Lightweave Proc and The trinket so we believe that the combination of Lightweave, plus both trinkets over my single trinket proc is resulting in starting the fight with a combust capable of far exceeding mine, plus the proccing of both the second trinket and lightweave throughout the fight which I do not have also meaning that he is consistently getting higher SP than me, and in some cases by significant margins which is resulting in big differences in damage.

For example, at the beginning of that fight, all of the trinkets and procs were up, he had
18,097 (base) + 4232 (Mastermind) + 4232 (Breath of Many Minds) + 2000 (Lightweave) = 28,561 INT during which to use CD's and pop combustion. Mine on the other hand is 20,870 (base) + 4232 (Mastermind) = 25,102 INT.

What the above means is that the Critical Pyro hits during this time of CD's and needed for good combust, end up significantly higher resulting in much higher combusts. Also, by there being three procs, higher chance of a proc being up at any time meaning overal higher SP by several thousand + easier to align procs to second and thrid combust etc.

The point in the end, is that while crit is important, procs right now, particularly SP ones, are almost OP for a fire mage, and conversely if you do not have them, there is a significant difference in damage output which so far has been averaging out to be between 10% and 20% total damage done just because of the SP procs.

So if you are planning on going Fire, I think there is more to it than simple stat distribution for good damage output.


all of what you just said can be summed up by saying that you dont have the council trinket, which is HUGE. all of your sp difference is because of that, and if you are not enchanter or engi then your not going to have that extra int proc for things. gemming int wont really help much, gemming crit will be better in the long run until such times that you can gem int again next tier, maybe. the council trinket procs more than anything ive seen and i constantly see pryo's crit for over 500k during begining burst with everything up.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
17945
also virt i dont have much more sp then you, but i do have the council trinket so:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/wan9q1lrwmlo1v5x/details/26/?s=6665&e=7148

25H megaera this past week as you can see i had 22 pyro hits average 145,744 and 66 pyro crits average 299,911
Reply Quote
100 Human Mage
10225
Thank you all for the valuable feedback on my original topic. I am pleased to see that there is at least some 'light at the end of the tunnel' with fire's viability.

This being said... I've just got to ask, because this info really begs the question:

Is it really fair for the mechanics to dictate that essentially "You have to get ilvl ~530 to play fire effectively"?

Not to sound whiny about the issue however, wouldn't it make more sense if say; fire dps at ilvl 505 was similar to frost/arc dps are ilvl 505?

I understand it's a scaling issue with crit but to be honest, I'm just a casual LFRaider that has a humble 505 at the moment and no intention of doing hardcore raiding.

I'm not asking to be able to do 530 ilvl dps... I just think it would be nice to be able to play as fire at my current gear level and not feel like I have both my arms tied behind my back.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
12785
Not being a *@!*!%!%, but here's your problem.
06/10/2013 10:06 PMPosted by Karinà
I'm just a casual LFRaider


just think it would be nice to be able to play as fire at my current gear level and not feel like I have both my arms tied behind my back


Unfortunately you can not have your cake and eat it too.
Reply Quote
90 Human Mage
17990
Quite honestly the game has always been this way. MoP tried to make all specs viable which they pretty much are but in the past its always been to play such and such spec you need to attain such and such stats.
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Mage
20090
Fire's just a tough spec to balance at the low end and high end right now. The huge gap in item level differences is mostly to blame, and with yet another raid difficulty coming in 5.4 that can't help the situation
Edited by Digerati on 6/10/2013 11:23 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Human Mage
21845

You do realize that 80% crit does not mean that 8/10, 16/20 or 80/100 heating ups will result in hot streak? EVERY cast has an 80% chance to crit. I can have 90% effective crit and cast 10 fireballs and get 0 crits. Welcome to probability. Let me put it in real-life: the 100 year flood does not mean it will happen every 100 years. It simply means that EVERY YEAR there is a 1 in 100 chance for it to happen. Consider this your schooling for the summer.


^ That post makes disturbingly 0 sense, anyone else? You have 90% effective crit? Please... with that crit chance you getting 0 crits in 10 casts would be almost equal to your chance of winning the lottery. Also, they kinda invented Inferno Blast this expansion to be able to force hot streaks...
I hope that was your 'speculation', in that case I can at least see what you were trying to say.

Next time though go with an example that somewhat makes sense (i.e. ~40% buffed crit chance and go from there)
Edited by Newcomer on 6/11/2013 7:33 AM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Human Mage
10225
Not being a *@!*!%!%, but here's your problem.
I'm just a casual LFRaider


just think it would be nice to be able to play as fire at my current gear level and not feel like I have both my arms tied behind my back


Unfortunately you can not have your cake and eat it too.


I'm not saying I want leet fire dps.

I'm just saying fire should be a viable spec for more than just heroic raid end-game.

It genuinely feels like mages under i530 only have two specs to choose from.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Mage
12310
Vykina has a very good Fire Mage guide down at Method's website - you may want to check it out.

@Karina - the problem with fire has always traditionally been that it scales very very well with gear unlike frost which seems to have scaling issues.

That being said, it would appear that Blizzard did most of their fire mage balancing assuming near BiS heroic gear. Which is why at lower gear levels fire struggles so much - the dependency on crit is the killer. First you need the crit for those rolling Pyro! procs. Then you need the spell power to make those Combustions massive 5 Mil+

So, if they balanced fire at LFR gear level, you can imagine how powerful it will be at heroic BiS gear level.
Reply Quote
Idk, there's a little in this thread about Fire being better than frost or arcane but I find mixed results per boss. I think it's just feel of spec and what you like per boss. For most fights i'll do my best in fire just cause the movement kills arcane. Some how on Jin'Rock I get my best results from fire but on Horridon and Council I do way better in Arcane. Tortos is kinda close for all three but seems like frost turns out better. Megara is a mixed bag lol. I think the reason I do better in arcane on Horridon and Council in Arcane is because the spell cleave has nothing to do w/ RNG and less to do w/ add placement.
Reply Quote
93 Gnome Mage
12640
great guide
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
A lot of people are "effectively running Fire Spec".
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
Fire's just a tough spec to balance at the low end and high end right now. The huge gap in item level differences is mostly to blame, and with yet another raid difficulty coming in 5.4 that can't help the situation


I fully expect another nerf to Fire, largely to thwart people with item levels of 545
Reply Quote
100 Troll Mage
20525
I'm just saying fire should be a viable spec for more than just heroic raid end-game.


It's viable at lower gear level, it's just not as good. I stayed fire because the fights were I could cleave DoTs made it strong and the raid DPS wasn't an issue on single target fights. Once we were further along and DPS became more important I started to look into Frost, but by then my gear was catching up to where it needed to be and Fire came back out on top pretty much everywhere for me.
Reply Quote
100 Troll Shaman
17840
06/13/2013 07:45 AMPosted by Mageski
I'm just saying fire should be a viable spec for more than just heroic raid end-game.


It's viable at lower gear level, it's just not as good. I stayed fire because the fights were I could cleave DoTs made it strong and the raid DPS wasn't an issue on single target fights. Once we were further along and DPS became more important I started to look into Frost, but by then my gear was catching up to where it needed to be and Fire came back out on top pretty much everywhere for me.


This exactly. I went fire like a month before tot came out and never switched from it.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]