Challenge: Prove Resto Shaman are fine

90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
Using actual data. Not just personal anecdotes.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
*crickets*
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90 Human Paladin
15480
Using actual data


World first guild brought just as many shamans as mistweavers and druids for world first 25 LS and RD. They brought 0 priests for LS.

If you care to fact check

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/twisting-nether/Method

Blood Legion, same thing.

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/illidan/Blood+Legion

inb4 mana battery. Because if that were the case why were none brought for world first rag kills in mid expac last tier.

And I am not saying shaman are perfect. But I am also saying that they are not terrible.
Edited by Taelaus on 6/9/2013 6:39 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
And to take it a step further there are 9 shaman ranked in top 10 across 25M H this tier and 7 paladins. So does that mean that shamans are better than paladins? There are 7 druids, does that mean druids are worse off than shaman?

edit: and yes I switched to my shaman to avoid the lolpaladin comments. Not to further my point.
Edited by Harpoa on 6/9/2013 6:49 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
And to take it a step further there are 9 shaman ranked in top 10 across 25M H this tier and 7 paladins. So does that mean that shamans are better than paladins? There are 7 druids, does that mean druids are worse off than shaman?

edit: and yes I switched to my shaman to avoid the lolpaladin comments. Not to further my point.


Top 10 dashboard view on WoL has always been completely and absolutely useless - it shows extreme outliers. Plus, most of those rankings are likely from the one day after 5.3 that Healing Rain was not capped, making them even more useless than usual.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Top 10 dashboard view on WoL has always been completely and absolutely useless - it shows extreme outliers


Outliers, I agree, but also shows the potential of a healing class when things go wrong.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Harpoa, noooo!

*Dives and takes the bullet*
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
06/09/2013 06:56 PMPosted by Harpoa
Top 10 dashboard view on WoL has always been completely and absolutely useless - it shows extreme outliers


Outliers, I agree, but also shows the potential of a healing class when things go wrong.


Potential is not particularly relevant when it is something that comes into play ~0.1% of the time. I am not arguing that Resto Shaman representation (in 25H) was bad this tier (it wasn't) or that representation in high ranking heroic kills was poor (it wasn't - with the exception of Dark Animus). But, that data is largely a 5.2 picture, and we are in 5.3 and in a new iteration of class balance.

What I am arguing is that - if there was a new tier right now, the changes to healer balance in 5.3 would make Shaman lose a lot of the viability and desirability that they had in 5.2. Progression is over for top guilds, so we will never really be able to prove that, but what I am saying is that unless this is addressed in a meaningful way in 5.4, it will be an issue in T16.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Harpoa, noooo!


Hey buddy.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
and we are in 5.3 and in a new iteration of class balance.


Well it is not balanced at all because of the readjusted cap on cd's. So 5.3 is a throw away at best.

Get ready for the seige of stacking that is incoming in 5.4.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
06/09/2013 07:04 PMPosted by Harpoa
and we are in 5.3 and in a new iteration of class balance.


Well it is not balanced at all because of the readjusted cap on cd's. So 5.3 is a throw away at best.

Get ready for the seige of stacking that is incoming in 5.4.


If that happens - and god, I hope it doesn't - from the perspective of the tier being fun to play, not from a selfish personal perspective. That said, if Shaman post 5.3 are lagging on stacked fights like iron Qon, Megaera, etc, would DS style fight mechanics really balance it?
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Quite possibly not, and it's perfectly fine to surmise these outcomes, but it would be more preferable to me to just wait and see.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Quite possibly not, and it's perfectly fine to surmise these outcomes, but it would be more preferable to me to just wait and see.


Given that we took this approach last tier, and waited until they put ToT live with obvious Shaman deficiencies and then had to wait 3+ weeks for a hotfix, I'd rather raise all heck now than sit there and "assume Blizzard will fix it". After all, if Shaman are performing below average on a fight like Iron Qon, why will that suddenly change on a stacked fight in 5.4, unless they put through something to make it change.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
I guess I'm moderately suspect when nearing the end of a raiding tier, and that alone triggers my obsession for empirical evidence. It was a personal comment, if that wasn't evident. This was also only with regard to this single concern for stacked throughput.

The community has amassed numerous concerns for Restoration Shamans for now over multiple expansions. I would never discourage the discussion of these ideas and more. The near unanimous conflict with Shaman's spread healing toolkit, for example, can effortlessly be your standard-bearer going into the next tier, as it probably has many tiers before it.
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While 5.4 might show us a whole other perspective of healer balance once it happens, I doubt the tides will shift much. Once we see encounters balanced around the new 25m raid cooldowns (inc World of BurstCDcraft), the buffed Tranq/DH/Revival will see even less overhealing compared to right now. Sure, that also means that other healers will also get more to heal, but that doesn't matter if mechanics still prevent you from pumping out comparable output.

Unless Siege only has one boss called Blood Queen Ultraxionosa, I doubt we'll see much of a change of the relative power of current healing classes without meaningful changes during 5.4. And this late in the expansion, I'd expect them to push things until 6.0 to address any remaining issues. We will really have to wait and see, however.

inb4 mana battery. Because if that were the case why were none brought for world first rag kills in mid expac last tier.

Not sure if it is a fair comparison to think H FL progression was on the same level as right now for Resto Shaman. Resto was brought for MTT in T11 before they nerfed how OP it was with Spirit Trinkets, and after that gave us output buffs. After that, you never really needed MTT at all as all other healers had much better mana regeneration compared to now, particularly those with Int scaling regen. Also, stacking full Int was better than going for Spirit so we never reached enough Spirit to make it as notable as today (except for Holy Priests due to Holy Concentration, and later Paladins with JotP).

And HR was strong but not *that* strong back then compared to today, in terms of relative output. It was our top heal, but not by the same ammount as nowadays. GHW spamming through all of H FL was viable and put out decent numbers; today, you can't rely on it to pump a similar relative output.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
would DS style fight mechanics really balance it?


Probably not but it is always fun to goof on it.

And a side note tib, though I don't know you or what you are about. I understand that you are passionate about the game but when you drub the class and drub the class, no matter how justified or not, people will read it and take it as gospel. Good portion of the player base checks progress.

Shaman have always been an interesting class, and a fun one at that.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
06/09/2013 07:50 PMPosted by Korghal
I doubt the tides will shift much


Yeah, and I naturally agree, though all dimensions, all possibilities, are open to me, etc, etc. With considerable evidence there is, again, no harm in surmising. Without it, there would be no discussion and therefore no invitation for varying perspectives and ideas.

Considering the usual "mastery diminished on farm content" and "bubbles suppressing my healing" thrown around these days, enjoy the irony in witnessing my suggesting this.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
Shaman participation in 25H guilds that have push beyond 5/13H is still in the upper-middle of the pack.

That's the only number blizzard cares about. They let players determine the value of an entire spec/classes worth by seeing who logs on to kill the hardest dragons.

In 10H, blizzard sees an entirely a different number, and they've already talked about how to they considering tinkering around it. (remove best pvp talent of the totem tier for a spread talent of sorts)
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90 Pandaren Shaman
16945
edit: and yes I switched to my shaman to avoid the lolpaladin comments. Not to further my point.


We postin' on shaman now?
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