[PvE] Hunter hotfix concerns

100 Troll Hunter
20250
I can understand why taking away pet special use is an attractive nerf for Hunters from a PvP standpoint, and even from a technical standpoint in PvE. All those abilities being used by all those pets could really stress the system.

I don't have a huge problem with the pets not using their buffs/heals/stuns and the like. It'll affect solo play in PvE mostly but maybe that's just a sacrifice that needs to be made.

What is a problem is that I also assume this means they don't use claw/bite/smack or rabid. That's a HUGE nerf to a dps cooldown. A dps cooldown we're going to pot during. A dps cooldown whose dps is nerfed over 60%.

And to compensate... a 15% damage buff to arcane shot?

On paper I realize this might math out (and it does on FemaleDwarf), but the mere fact that we are going to tend to stack Stampede with our pots and trinkets means this becomes a nerf in practice.

Accounting for that in FemaleDwarf with my gear, the Arcane Shot buff would have to be at least 20% to properly compensate.

My proposal, and my preferred solution is to go ahead and remove ability usage from pets in stampede EXCEPT growl (this is very important utility I am unwilling to give up and has ZERO impact on PvP), but buff their damage to 65% of pet damage from 25%. Stampede base damage remains the same but no pet specials i.e. extra buffs/heals/cc. Failing that increase Arcane Shot buff to 20%.

P.S. Totally willing to give a breakdown of my calculations if asked but as they are rather simple, I assume you can figure it out Blizz.
Edited by Tokudred on 6/10/2013 10:25 AM PDT
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100 Troll Hunter
17645
If they want to remove all abilities (I agree Growl should stay - granted, I don't see any issue with the utility since that was the entire point of the CD in the first place), then they should bump the auto-attack damage on Stampede instead of buffing Arcane.

All that will do is cause the QQ to fixate on a new target, and at least that way, the damage is still all in Stampede, just delivered differently (no more "huge", quoty fingers because it isn't really huge for a 5 min CD, up front burst from 4x Bite * 50% (25% of base damage, doubled due to Wild Hunt, which is effectively 2x Bite)).

And besides, you can AOE CC the Stampede. If they just move it to Arc, you can't Interrupt/Silence/Root that damage....(filling in the blank for the QQ tirade)
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100 Troll Hunter
20250
That was my proposal at the bottom

Buff Stampede damage to 65% from 25% of pet damage. Remove ability usage.
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91 Troll Warlock
6075
So they nerf Zoo that's more annoying than anything else, then buff hunter sustained further. Well, better get some popcorn, MM QQ is going to light up the night.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
Where's the information? I feel like I missed something.

So they nerf Zoo that's more annoying than anything else, then buff hunter sustained further. Well, better get some popcorn, MM QQ is going to light up the night.


And yeah it doesn't make much sense. If a class has high burst it's OMG OP NERF BURST and if a class has great sustained damage because they don't have burst (Unholy for example) it's OMG DAMAGE OK NERF DAMAGE.

What the !@#$ do people want? They %^-*! about burst then they @#$%^ about sustained.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
18040
Where's the information? I feel like I missed something.

So they nerf Zoo that's more annoying than anything else, then buff hunter sustained further. Well, better get some popcorn, MM QQ is going to light up the night.


And yeah it doesn't make much sense. If a class has high burst it's OMG OP NERF BURST and if a class has great sustained damage because they don't have burst (Unholy for example) it's OMG DAMAGE OK NERF DAMAGE.

What the !@#$ do people want? They %^-*! about burst then they @#$%^ about sustained.

Apparently hunters are to strong in PvP right now, but anybody that says that is also saying that stampede should be nerfed. Is there just a lot of complaining going on about hunters? People are acting like the 10% ap buff made us more overpowered than we were last patch.
Edited by Spinnerdh on 6/10/2013 12:32 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
I don't quite understand why the damage fully baked into Arcane Shot. Didn't they learn from beta testing that Arcane Shot is probably the LAST place you want to buff? It can throw so many things out of whack regarding signature shot damage values relative to Arcane.

Maybe not a big deal for Marks because of the drastic difference in Focus cost between Chimera and Arcane and the fact Chimera is used to maintain Sting but this is going to be interesting to math out for Survival.....Probably won't surpass Explosive but it was bad enough in the beta where Explosive Shot was only like 5% stronger on average than Arcane Shot before adjustments, which we're now seeing basically reverted now. Everytime they tweak Arcane Shot damage, it ends up becoming a mess.

Also, I guess this means Stampede is now useless in PvE. It already did !@#$ all for damage unless you were BM, even with Rabid and Basic Attacks. Without either, it's going to be in the same place as Enhancement Shaman's Feral Spirits last expansion where it looks cool but does nothing in PvE, at least for Survival and Marks.

Look I get it. Hunter burst could have used a hit in PvP. But at least give us an effective PvE fix than some random bandaid on Arcane Shot and completely killing the PvE usage of our new ability. This will be the SECOND expansion where our new stuff has panned out to be entirely useless (Camo, Stampede) or removed (Fox) for us PvErs.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/10/2013 12:36 PM PDT
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100 Troll Hunter
17645
I don't quite understand why the damage fully baked into Arcane Shot. Didn't they learn from beta testing that Arcane Shot is probably the LAST place you want to buff? It can throw so many things out of whack regarding signature shot damage values relative to Arcane.

But doing the same buff as they do time and time again is the best approach because it works so well before, right?

Its not like they end up having to make that exact same change next raid tier (or expansion) because they won't fix the real issues, instead just give what best can be described as a PR nerf to appease to QQ masses.

Referring to Arc Shot/Stampede, even I thought blinks on a 3 sec CD was excessive (which is why I recommended the 2 prong approach to that talent even before Blizz revealed their solution, passive Dmg/Range increase along with an active port/damage on a cooldown).

Would have reduced the burst, still provided the necessary PVE uptime (30ish yards on Basic Attacks for BM Frenzy generation), and maintained the overall damage value of the talent.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
Just tweeted GC.

Cmon response.
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100 Troll Hunter
17645
Just tweeted GC.

Cmon response.
If anything, I expect the response will be summarized as:

6.0 will fix it!

What I tweeted

15% Arcane Shot buff skews damage values of ES/KC vs AS for Beast and Survival. What about buffing some passive modifiers?

They are worried about buffing "auto damage" too much?

I get there is a difference in what you are referring to (i.e. Frenzy/Focus Fire, Careful Aim/Piercing Shots, etc) and what that is referring to, but at this point, I don't expect much in the way of meaningful changes to hunters. Just whatever nerf makes the QQers happy, and whatever compensation keeps us close to the level we are at for PVE.
Edited by Verdash on 6/10/2013 1:19 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
What I tweeted

15% Arcane Shot buff skews damage values of ES/KC vs AS for Beast and Survival. What about buffing some passive modifiers?
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
Just tweeted GC.

Cmon response.
If anything, I expect the response will be summarized as:

6.0 will fix it!

What I tweeted

15% Arcane Shot buff skews damage values of ES/KC vs AS for Beast and Survival. What about buffing some passive modifiers?

They are worried about buffing "auto damage" too much?

I get there is a difference in what you are referring to (i.e. Frenzy/Focus Fire, Careful Aim/Piercing Shots, etc) and what that is referring to, but at this point, I don't expect much in the way of meaningful changes to hunters. Just whatever nerf makes the QQers happy, and whatever compensation keeps us close to the level we are at for PVE.

Because it prevents issues where a signature and filler are too close in damage and provides a way to compensate damage output without impacting PvP performance. Even the 15% buff to Arcane Shot is going to have PvP ramifications, especially for a spec like Marks who already had strong sustained output.

Sadly, probably won't happen.

Beast Mastery has a lot of passive modifiers like
-Go for the Throat
-Invigoration
-Frenzy
-Cobra Strikes

Marksmanship has
-Piercing Shots
-Careful Aim
-Steady Focus

Survival has
-Viper Venom
-Improved Serpent Sting
-Trap Mastery

Any of those are solid places they could buff that won't have PvP impact. The Arcane Shot buff is going to be met with more QQ and will likely get Marksmanship nerfed once Hunters start playing that.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/10/2013 1:27 PM PDT
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100 Troll Hunter
17645
06/10/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Bullettime
Any of those are solid places they could buff that won't have PvP impact.

Yep, but Arcane Shots was quicker, and the Dev wanted to get back to his Hearthstone collection!

...don't mind me...just bitter that yet again our cool ability for the expansion is nerfed to "why even bother", which does nothing more than add on to our ability bloat, water down the damage/utility abilities we have, and gives something meaningless to complain about (I still see Camo complaints, for example...)
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100 Tauren Paladin
17630
Camo is broken as well at least if you refresh to fast after it falls off. Stupid scaredy mage camping quest giver rawrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Anywhoooo so hunters nerfed apparently not enough at the beginning of the patch and so nerf the new ability more. Sounds like Blizzard not understanding it's product again.

o they nerf Zoo that's more annoying than anything else, then buff hunter sustained further. Well, better get some popcorn, MM QQ is going to light up the night.


Sustained further burst further toned down like it needed it and overall dps the same. The issue is people actually having to play a hunter. We had these complaints in cataclysm hunters OP. Except then it was 1 in 1000 people that could play to that lvl. Now the people that did okay before are doing exceptional with a class.

I am just bitter and tired.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
12655
Wait, what hotfixes are these? I know there's one involving Stampede and pets using their special attacks, but that's this about Blink Strikes now?

Seriously, if they managed to somehow break this ability like Grimoire of Sacrifice for Warlocks... ugh.
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100 Troll Hunter
20250
I think its ill conceived and we don't even get to PTR it before it goes in.

Its not some tiny hotfix, it functionally changes an ability in all aspects of gamepley, not just PvP.
If what I propose isn't enough, seriously just disallow its use in instanced PvP until you can come up with a better plan because this is REALLY terrible in every other aspect of the game.
Edited by Tokudred on 6/10/2013 2:46 PM PDT
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90 Orc Hunter
20765
So they nerf Zoo that's more annoying than anything else, then buff hunter sustained further. Well, better get some popcorn, MM QQ is going to light up the night.
From PVP perspective, it's a pretty big nerf, since active DPS time is much lower and secondary buffs/debuffs/CCs matter a lot more than in PVE even with Arcane Shot buff.

From PVE perspective, looking at my logs from last week as BM and the week prior as SV, removing basic attacks (Claw/Bite) and reducing damage from auto attacks affected by Rabid, BM sees almost no change and SV sees about ~200 dps increase on most fights. MM is the redheaded stepchild this xpac, so don't really know how much it would be affected, but it would be a nerf regardless, since it doesn't get pet mastery bonus like BM or elemental mastery damage like SV.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
11010
I don't quite understand why the damage fully baked into Arcane Shot. Didn't they learn from beta testing that Arcane Shot is probably the LAST place you want to buff? It can throw so many things out of whack regarding signature shot damage values relative to Arcane.


This is my concern too. With quick napkin math on simcraft's H t15 profile, KC comes close to only being worth it during BW. Not a good prospect.
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06/10/2013 01:29 PMPosted by Verdash
Any of those are solid places they could buff that won't have PvP impact.

Yep, but Arcane Shots was quicker, and the Dev wanted to get back to his Hearthstone collection!

...don't mind me...just bitter that yet again our cool ability for the expansion is nerfed to "why even bother", which does nothing more than add on to our ability bloat, water down the damage/utility abilities we have, and gives something meaningless to complain about (I still see Camo complaints, for example...)


Man I'm never going to let camo go, it could have been such a cool ability and instead it just got turned into a pile of semi translucent crap, thanks a lot rogues.
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