[PvE] Hunter hotfix concerns

100 Blood Elf Hunter
4775
Been playing a hunter for long time, regardless of others personal feelings toward the class, after all these years the trend of buff, nerf gets old. I play this class because it suits me, not because I want phat loots, or to be at the top of a imaginary ladder. All this pixelated envy from other pixelated classes amuses me to no end. Just think where will this angst get you in 10 years? Blizzard will do what is best for gameplay and if they screw up I'm sure it will be revisited. Relax, nothing is permanent in the virtual world of Warcraft. So...go with the flow hunters and others.
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100 Troll Hunter
7060
I'm looking at FD but the current Stampede Numbers seem off. I think it's implying 1 stampede pet gets 33 attacks for me. That would be a pet attack speed of like .45? In reality it should be more like 20-22.

Anyway, at 21 attacks per pet in 520 gear it still means Stampede is doing about 400,000 damage over 20 seconds. That's enough that it should still be our highest priority ability.
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100 Troll Hunter
19295
Artea... its 400,000 damage... on a FIVE MINUTE COOLDOWN...

that's terrible... I really don't understand Blizzard making this kind of change as a HOTFIX
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100 Troll Hunter
16450
Artea... its 400,000 damage... on a FIVE MINUTE COOLDOWN...

that's terrible... I really don't understand Blizzard making this kind of change as a HOTFIX

Its because they don't like making drastic changes for balance sake to play styles or mechanics without at least a PTR.

/pause for subtletly

For kicks, I played with FD, using my gear, BM Spec (Thrill/Blink/Power), a generic pet with no buff/debuff (i.e. a "utility" pet).

I set the fight to 0.1 minutes (i.e. 6 seconds). My combined DPS was derived as 193,041.89 (1,158,251.34 total damage). This seems a little weird, so instead, here is the damage breakdown/frequency: (Avg Hit / Avg Crit / Frequency)

Kill Shot: 117,502 / 185,331 / 1
Powershot: 128,524 / 264,759 / 1
Auto Shot: 22,222 / 45,778 / 3
Kill Command: 101,858 / 203,715 / 2
Pet Melee: 18,376 / 36,751 / 8
Basic Attack: 70,000 / 139,999 / 2
Total Damage: 1,466,832 (I only totaled average non-crits in this)

You notice something? In 6 seconds, assuming I can get Kill Shot in there (Power Shot -> Kill Command x2 -> Kill Shot - note how time is spent on Power Shot that could easily be used on Arcane Shot if you open with Powershot) I am doing 1,500k damage.

Now, that is PVE. Let's reduce that according to resilience. In PVP, that damage cycle would be 513,391 damage, before PVP Power (at that point, I can't reasonably suggest where it would end up, as changing my gear to PVP gear would cause the damage values to shift).

My point is, a PVE geared player, with no PVP Power, can do nearly 500k damage in 6 seconds, assuming they have everything up (Note: That is assuming NOTHING critically striked).

So, please tell me again how Stampede is the problem. I eagerly await whatever nonsense you can come up with. I tweaked FD to add in Mastery/Crit/Kings and Sunder Armor (Full Sunder, TallStrider) to simulate an example of buffing yourself out with stampede. That combined number (that was actually less than the total damage done) increase to 229,195.41 DPS (an increase of 36,153.52 DPS, or 18%).

So, if I stack my stables with buffs and debuffs I already don't have (it is group PVP, mind you), I can see at most a 20% increase to my 500k in 6 seconds cycle (again, note the complete lack of crit in that estimation).

Now, is the problem 20% increase, or is the problem the 500k in 6 seconds? Keep in mind, for every buff/debuff I already have that my stampede would grant, that is one less utility option I have occuring during the stampede.

It really is damage vs utility in stampede, and the damage problem is not coming from stampede.
Edited by Verdash on 6/11/2013 9:10 AM PDT
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100 Troll Hunter
19295
soooo now, from a fully raid buffed hunter mind you and not item squished, taking into account resilience and pets getting say 75% uptime on their target this ability will now deal 150k damage over 20 seconds against players... reduce by about 30% (ballpark figure) to account for item squish... and its slightly over 100k damage over 20 seconds in arenas... on a five minute cooldown... and that's assuming full buffs/flask/pot/pve trinkets...

I mean seriously why not just remove it from arena if you're going to do that to it Blizzard and leave it alone for PvE or better yet if its causing that much problem just delete it. Don't taunt us with this "DPS" cooldown that we'll really just use to call out all our friends to have tea with. I'm sorry about this, I never get into dev bashing ever, but this move is simply retarded plain and simple.
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90 Tauren Hunter
10755
This will be the SECOND expansion where our new stuff has panned out to be entirely useless (Camo, Stampede) or removed (Fox) for us PvErs.


Third expansion in a row, you forgot that Ice Arrow whatever thing (pre trap launcher) we got as the new shiny in Wrath. Which the in-elegant but passable Trap Launcher later replaced.
Edited by Torgall on 6/11/2013 9:33 AM PDT
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100 Troll Hunter
7060
Artea... its 400,000 damage... on a FIVE MINUTE COOLDOWN...

that's terrible... I really don't understand Blizzard making this kind of change as a HOTFIX


I didn't say it wasn't weak for its CD. I was specifically responding to the statement that it isn't worth using as a result of the nerf. It's still our highest DPET ability and costs 0 focus. However, it's ridiculously weak for a 5 min CD. It should be lowered to 2-3 minutes now if nothing else.

Honestly they should just revert it to its old form and remove it from Arena entirely. Then when people continue whining about our burst we can point out to Blizzard how fricken stupid this "Blame stampede" mentality is.
Edited by Aertea on 6/11/2013 10:00 AM PDT
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100 Troll Hunter
19295
I happen to agree Artea and I'm saying this as I start to dabble in PvP now that I have more time. Make it a 10 minute cooldown, make it a great button to press while simultaneously removing it from arena. Balance hunters in PvP w/o them having stampede.
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Community Manager
We’re aware that the latest round of hotfixes caused some confusion for many Hunters, and want to offer some insight into the logic and reasoning that led to these particular changes.

Patch 5.3 resulted in Hunters feeling a bit stronger in PvP than in 5.2, where we feel they were in a much better place overall. Stampede in particular has been proving troublesome. We originally designed it with an “empty your stables” theme primarily for flavor–we wanted you to be able to see all of your favorite pets. In practice, it turned into more of a “deck building” mini-game, where Hunters were managing their entire stable to bring as much crowd control, raid buffs, etc. as possible. That’s opposite of our intentions with the Mists stable redesign; we want you to be able to pull out whichever pet you feel is ideal for your current situation. If you’re instead filling your stable based on whatever’s ideal for Stampede, you lose that entirely.

Furthermore, this min-maxing led to Stampede being a bit stronger of a DPS cooldown than we’d really like, especially for Beast Masters (who are already quite bursty in PvP). The hotfix lets us tone Stampede back just a little, and once again allows Hunters to keep whichever pets they like in the stable.

With Blink Strikes, our goals with the original 5.3 changes were to reduce Hunter burst for PvP as well as give them a passive talent option. Generally speaking, we prefer active talents to be slightly superior to passive talents in the same tier. No one will choose an active talent if it requires more work for the same reward. So, we wanted Blink Strikes to be DPS-neutral. Instead, it ended up being a PvP buff, hence the hotfix.

Regarding the changes to Arcane Shot, Cobra Shot, and Steady Shot, we had originally only buffed Arcane shot, but there was some risk that it would change Hunter rotations, which wasn’t our intent. We simply wanted to compensate for the Stampede and Blink Strikes changes. Ultimately, our goal with all of these changes is simply to tone back some of the outlying behaviors that were causing Hunters to feel a little too strong in PvP in 5.3, without much impact elsewhere.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
14540
Zarhym,

Thank you for the input. I am fine with the changes to stampede. I did want to bring up the PvP side of this. Many marks hunter enthusiasts would love to be able to enjoy the spec again in regards to, well, both PvE and PvP. I think the arcane shot buff and steady shot buff will of course help my cause but I fear that in that realm, it will still not be enough.

I ask simply that the class get the attention it deserves, which is to say that I feel pigeon holed into one spec. As I mainly PvP, this is exactly how I feel. Look at other pure's and you will see that a destro, aff, and demo lock all have places in PvP. Furthermore, look at unpures such as paladins. Hell they can use their tank spec to flag carry. On top of that, ret is very viable and so is holy. I ask that you please pass this request on to the dev's that they pay particular attention to marks, as I feel like the class is losing its luster. Thanks.

The 'bold'
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
Thank you for the comment Zarhym. Bit of a problem with the damage buffs though regarding PvE gameplay.

The problem with a buff to Arcane Shot is the synergy the shot has with spec signature shots. Because of the Arcane Shot buff, Kill Command, Beast Mastery's bread and butter, is now a DPS loss to use outside of Bestial Wrath or fully raid buffed/debuffed. This means that soloing Hunters will basically be mindlessly mashing Arcane Shot.

The buff to Arcane Shot also has killed Aimed Shot from being a viable Focus dump outside of the normal Careful Aim for Marksmanship, causing Marksmanship to do even worse in comparison to the other two specs. Marksmanship is underperforming in PvE still but current gear values were allowing Marksmanship to reforge heavy Haste and open up the Aimed Shot priority, which might not have helped much in the short term but it would have allowed Marksmanship better PvE scaling and overall viability moving into the next tier. The 10% buff to Arcane Shot has prevented that from happening by requiring a extraordinary amount of Haste to make Aimed Shot even break even. What the change did was effectively NERF Marksmanship in the long term as it was depending on the Aimed Shot cycle to return. It's a wash in the current tier but stifled Marksmanship's damage potential in the future, forcing Marksmanship to require more adjustments in the next tier or become useless for the third tier in a row.

Arcane Shot was the source of many balancing concerns during the beta testing that myself and other Hunters actively contributed in. Throwing a buff to Arcane Shot might seem simple on paper, but it has a lot of other ramifications and throws the damage ratios between signatures and fillers out of whack as seen now and during the beta testing.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/11/2013 6:10 PM PDT
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86 Undead Mage
0
I have to say that these changes did not increase my dps. I play MM and ran a ten minute dps test on target dummy and and my dps was 2% lower than last week while performing a 10 minute dps test.

I also was out dpsed by a Survival hunter in a heroic scenario about an hour ago. I pulled roughly 70k dps. He pulled 96k dps. These numbers are approximate for both multiple targets and single targets. I reset the addon before each pull. I had ten item levels on him as well. My weapon was 510 and he had a 502 weapon.

I have been playing MM for quite a long time and am wondering if MM is bugged or if the changes have not gone through for the spec. The tool tip notes the changes, I am just not seeing them on the meters.

Thanks
Edited by Insanelord on 6/11/2013 6:12 PM PDT
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90 Orc Hunter
18075
Thank you for the comment Zarhym.

The problem with a buff to Arcane Shot is the synergy the shot has with spec signature shots. Because of the Arcane Shot buff, Kill Command, Beast Mastery's bread and butter, is now a DPS loss to use outside of Bestial Wrath and fully raid buffed/debuffed. This means that soloing Hunters will basically be mindlessly mashing Arcane Shot.

The buff to Arcane Shot also has killed Aimed Shot from being a viable Focus dump outside of the normal Careful Aim for Marksmanship, causing Marksmanship to do even worse in comparison to the other two specs. Marksmanship is underperforming in PvE still but current gear values were allowing Marksmanship to reforge heavy Haste and open up the Aimed Shot priority, which might not have helped much in the short term but it would have allowed Marksmanship better PvE scaling and overall viability moving into the next tier. The 10% buff to Arcane Shot has prevented that from happening by requiring a extraordinary amount of Haste to make Aimed Shot even break even. What the change did was effectively NERF Marksmanship in the long term as it was depending on the Aimed Shot cycle to return. It's a wash in the current tier but stifled Marksmanship's damage potential in the future, forcing Marksmanship to require more adjustments in the next tier or become useless for the third tier in a row.

Arcane Shot was the source of many balancing concerns during the beta testing that myself and other Hunters actively contributed in. Throwing a buff to Arcane Shot might seem simple on paper, but it has a lot of other ramifications and throws the damage ratios between signatures and fillers out of whack as seen now and during the beta testing.


So you're saying, my dear Bullettime, that in order to use KC over AS I have to have BW up AND be fully raid buffed?
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
@Bemis

Yes. Arcane Shot will outperform Kill Command in DPS outside of Bestial Wrath or when DPSing a fully debuffed target with raid buffs active. The two were ridiculously close beforehand due to Cobra Strikes and high Haste/low Mastery builds. The 10% Arcane buff won't surpass Kill Command in a raid setting but forces Beast Mastery gameplay outside of raids to be buttonmashing your Arcane Shot.

In a raid setting, there's no priority change. But it's a bit of a problem when using the specialization's signature shot will do less total DPS than the filler shot for solo content.

The change offset the damage loss in a full raid setting but caused a design issues for solo players and drastically hurt Marksmanship's long term viability unless other adjustments are given at a later date.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/11/2013 6:13 PM PDT
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90 Orc Hunter
18075
@Bemis

Yes. Arcane Shot will outperform Kill Command in DPS outside of Bestial Wrath or when DPSing a fully debuffed target with raid buffs active. The two were ridiculously close beforehand due to Cobra Strikes and high Haste/low Mastery builds. The 10% Arcane buff won't surpass Kill Command in a raid setting but forces Beast Mastery gameplay outside of raids to be buttonmashing your Arcane Shot.

In a raid setting, there's no priority change. But it's a bit of a problem when using the specialization's signature shot will do less total DPS than the filler shot for solo content.

The change offset the damage loss in a full raid setting but caused a design issues for solo players and drastically hurt Marksmanship's long term viability unless other adjustments are given at a later date.


Interesting. This will need to be addressed for sure. I doubt I will change anything while doing dailies or whatever, but even so , it still should not be the case that KC is not as powerful as AS in any situation.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
16130
We’re aware that the latest round of hotfixes caused some confusion for many Hunters, and want to offer some insight into the logic and reasoning that led to these particular changes.

Patch 5.3 resulted in Hunters feeling a bit stronger in PvP than in 5.2, where we feel they were in a much better place overall. Stampede in particular has been proving troublesome. We originally designed it with an “empty your stables” theme primarily for flavor–we wanted you to be able to see all of your favorite pets. In practice, it turned into more of a “deck building” mini-game, where Hunters were managing their entire stable to bring as much crowd control, raid buffs, etc. as possible. That’s opposite of our intentions with the Mists stable redesign; we want you to be able to pull out whichever pet you feel is ideal for your current situation. If you’re instead filling your stable based on whatever’s ideal for Stampede, you lose that entirely.

Furthermore, this min-maxing led to Stampede being a bit stronger of a DPS cooldown than we’d really like, especially for Beast Masters (who are already quite bursty in PvP). The hotfix lets us tone Stampede back just a little, and once again allows Hunters to keep whichever pets they like in the stable.

With Blink Strikes, our goals with the original 5.3 changes were to reduce Hunter burst for PvP as well as give them a passive talent option. Generally speaking, we prefer active talents to be slightly superior to passive talents in the same tier. No one will choose an active talent if it requires more work for the same reward. So, we wanted Blink Strikes to be DPS-neutral. Instead, it ended up being a PvP buff, hence the hotfix.

Regarding the changes to Arcane Shot, Cobra Shot, and Steady Shot, we had originally only buffed Arcane shot, but there was some risk that it would change Hunter rotations, which wasn’t our intent. We simply wanted to compensate for the Stampede and Blink Strikes changes. Ultimately, our goal with all of these changes is simply to tone back some of the outlying behaviors that were causing Hunters to feel a little too strong in PvP in 5.3, without much impact elsewhere.


So you decided to gut the ability entirely to near uselessness because it didn't fit with your envisioned flavor? If it's damage was the problem you could have adjusted that (it wasn't a problem) but instead you took the easy way out and just ham fisted a change. Typical blizz, do something right by accident only to ruin it later in a "fix". Way to remove the one fun UTILITY ability hunters had.
Edited by Bushsbuddy on 6/11/2013 6:16 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
@Bemis

Yes. Arcane Shot will outperform Kill Command in DPS outside of Bestial Wrath or when DPSing a fully debuffed target with raid buffs active. The two were ridiculously close beforehand due to Cobra Strikes and high Haste/low Mastery builds. The 10% Arcane buff won't surpass Kill Command in a raid setting but forces Beast Mastery gameplay outside of raids to be buttonmashing your Arcane Shot.

In a raid setting, there's no priority change. But it's a bit of a problem when using the specialization's signature shot will do less total DPS than the filler shot for solo content.

The change offset the damage loss in a full raid setting but caused a design issues for solo players and drastically hurt Marksmanship's long term viability unless other adjustments are given at a later date.


Interesting. This will need to be addressed for sure. I doubt I will change anything while doing dailies or whatever, but even so , it still should not be the case that KC is not as powerful as AS in any situation.


Hoping to get a response on this as it's quite problematic. Seems like a glaring design fault for Beast and effectively destroyed Marksmanship's viability next tier before it even starts.

Marksmanship had a feasible chance to make a comeback with a minor change or two due to the Aimed Shot cycle becoming attainable; a cycle that scales exponentially better than the Arcane Shot cycle (which scales like crap in comparison due to Piercing Shots not affecting it.)
Edited by Bullettime on 6/11/2013 6:19 PM PDT
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90 Orc Hunter
14705
We’re aware that the latest round of hotfixes caused some confusion for many Hunters, and want to offer some insight into the logic and reasoning that led to these particular changes.

Patch 5.3 resulted in Hunters feeling a bit stronger in PvP than in 5.2, where we feel they were in a much better place overall. Stampede in particular has been proving troublesome. We originally designed it with an “empty your stables” theme primarily for flavor–we wanted you to be able to see all of your favorite pets. In practice, it turned into more of a “deck building” mini-game, where Hunters were managing their entire stable to bring as much crowd control, raid buffs, etc. as possible. That’s opposite of our intentions with the Mists stable redesign; we want you to be able to pull out whichever pet you feel is ideal for your current situation. If you’re instead filling your stable based on whatever’s ideal for Stampede, you lose that entirely.

Furthermore, this min-maxing led to Stampede being a bit stronger of a DPS cooldown than we’d really like, especially for Beast Masters (who are already quite bursty in PvP). The hotfix lets us tone Stampede back just a little, and once again allows Hunters to keep whichever pets they like in the stable.

With Blink Strikes, our goals with the original 5.3 changes were to reduce Hunter burst for PvP as well as give them a passive talent option. Generally speaking, we prefer active talents to be slightly superior to passive talents in the same tier. No one will choose an active talent if it requires more work for the same reward. So, we wanted Blink Strikes to be DPS-neutral. Instead, it ended up being a PvP buff, hence the hotfix.

Regarding the changes to Arcane Shot, Cobra Shot, and Steady Shot, we had originally only buffed Arcane shot, but there was some risk that it would change Hunter rotations, which wasn’t our intent. We simply wanted to compensate for the Stampede and Blink Strikes changes. Ultimately, our goal with all of these changes is simply to tone back some of the outlying behaviors that were causing Hunters to feel a little too strong in PvP in 5.3, without much impact elsewhere.


Blink Strikes was OP but the stampede nerf just seems to make the ability less and less compelling and more and more "meh". It'll still be a dmg boost because for 20 seconds or so you have 5 pets attacking with their autoattacks. The "deck stacking" was a fun aspect of the game. Sad to see it go, but I suppose nerfs happen. I just hate that it happens at the insistence of the community rather than what is right or fun for players. (That may not be true, but it appears that way)

I understand that different classes are different but Demo Locks call out all of those Imps and those imps worse on players than Stampede every was/is with the CD being shorter. All those imps, chasing you and no way to mass silence them? Why can't the Imps get the same treatment. They hit just as hard as stampede and should be just as much "flavor" as Stampede.

Idk, that's my 2 cents. I mean the nerf sucks, but I can live with Stampede getting the flavor treatment. The Zoo can be a lot for some classes to deal with on top of everything else. I guess I've been rolling with Rex as my main toon for about 7-8 years and I'll keep rolling with the nerfs. All this nerfing though makes me wish our abilities would stay compelling instead of becoming more and more flavor and less and less interesting. (Again I agree Blink Strikes wasn't compelling anyway but Blink Strike was and helped with the Pillar Humping BS that goes on).

If Stampede is a flavor ability, why not just make it a Glyph or a minor spell and give us a better ability at 87 that is more interesting and fun?
Edited by Rexzoolza on 6/11/2013 6:21 PM PDT
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