[PvE] Hunter hotfix concerns

90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
My proposal, and my preferred solution is to go ahead and remove ability usage from pets in stampede EXCEPT growl (this is very important utility I am unwilling to give up and has ZERO impact on PvP


Utility of pissing off your tanks?
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100 Draenei Hunter
8125
BM Hunters need to be fundamentally gutted- they should have nowhere near the combination of control, damage, and cc immunity that they have in the current arena patch. BM used to be tolerable because, despite how ridicuous the giant red angry hunters were, they could not cc chain a team into oblivion- now they can take down anyone with low cooldown, ranged, instant CC's on a healer without even using offensive cooldowns themselves.

It's absolutely atrocious



Says a... rogue.
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100 Tauren Paladin
16995
Well at least stampede made it out of beta before becoming pure aesthetics.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
06/11/2013 06:22 PMPosted by Quard
My proposal, and my preferred solution is to go ahead and remove ability usage from pets in stampede EXCEPT growl (this is very important utility I am unwilling to give up and has ZERO impact on PvP


Utility of pissing off your tanks?

Stampede Growls actually help when soloing as it buys your original pet time to get healed up between a spike of damage or otherwise dying.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
PVE Nerfs for the sake of PVP Balance.

same !@#$, different day


PvE was compensated for the nerfs, although the compensation has its share of issues.

-Marksmanship hurt longterm
-Solo/5man/scenario running Beast Masters no longer using Kill Command outside of BW
-Stampede now an aesthetic skill and contributes basically no damage for a non BM Hunter.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/11/2013 6:28 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
16995
Utility of pissing off your tanks?


This is why it should be glyphed in PvE whilst grouped.
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90 Worgen Druid
21795
06/11/2013 05:47 PMPosted by Zarhym
That’s opposite of our intentions with the Mists stable redesign


Did you ever consider that your intentions weren't the most fun? The "deck building" as you call it to min/max was a lot of fun and gave the class depth. The buffs/debuffs the pets gave actually made it a cooldown, they were cc'd and kited anyway, but at least you got a damage buff for using the spell. Now on top of getting kited and doing abysmal damage they're not even bringing utility.

You ruined the spell. I personally already hated it because it was the hunter DPS cooldown and in PVP you can just avoid all the damage trivially by snares and cc's. You managed to make it even worse, I'm impressed. If you're not going to change it back but doing about half the DPS you should consider just removing it and giving hunters a real DPS cooldown that's not a lame gimmick like stampede.

Go in to an arena and play against some competent players. Your stampede probably do about 20k damage. The only benefit is that all those pets will soak some AoE fears or maybe a Psyfiend on you or your teammates. Damage wise arcane shot is a better global.

One question I do have is, why did you do such a massive change to a class 2/3 of the way through a PvP season? I'm appalled such a change went live with a hotfix and no prior discussion or probably even internal testing. You should be ashamed.
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90 Draenei Hunter
18195
It's nice to get a response but it's a bit disappointing that the intent regards to Stampede was for it to be a flavor ability. I don't personally PvP much out of capping with friends, but I definitely see why it was nerfed for PvP. That's completely understandable, but Stampede was never an issue in PvE, so why change it like you did?

As it stands right now Stampede is just a weaker Army that's just another button to push whenever it's up. Of course in most raid settings that's all it ever was but it was fun for soloing to get extra buffs or get a decent heal (of course that was also nerfed earlier in the expansion). The entire expansion has been full of Stampede nerfs or fixes and this one was about as far as you could go short of taking it out of the game.

Personally I would just as soon see you remove the ability and provide some tiny buffs elsewhere because Stampede isn't a cool, unique, skill that can sometimes provide niche benefits anymore; it's just another button.

As an aside, why couldn't this ability have been reworked to either flat out not useable in rated PvP or have the restrictions applied to it take effect in rated PvP? Even though you don't like setting different rules in PvP/PvE there are already a handful of cases in game where you do, so this could have been another one. The Blink Strike change was great; you only nerfed the part of it that needed to be nerfed (PvP pet mobility) but the ability retained its core form.
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100 Troll Hunter
16380
06/11/2013 05:47 PMPosted by Zarhym
That’s opposite of our intentions with the Mists stable redesign; we want you to be able to pull out whichever pet you feel is ideal for your current situation.

So 5.4 is going to convert pet family abilities into a skill tree then?
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100 Dwarf Hunter
13995
The hotfix lets us tone Stampede back just a little, and once again allows Hunters to keep whichever pets they like in the stable.


I'd say you toned it back more than just a little...

consider this... the 30 second cooldown "Dire Beast" now does virtually the same damage as Stampede. A 30 second cooldown (that also gives you focus back) vs. 5 min cooldown.

Stampede is now a DoT that does 150k-300k or so damage (depending on your buffs, gear, spec) on a 5 minute cooldown. Dire Beast does nearly the same amount of damage as 4 pets auto attacking for 25% damage each.

I'm trying not to make this sound like hyperbole, but as a level 87 signature hunter spell, Stampede is quite bad now. If a hunter were to take Stampede off their bar and not use it, their overall damage on a boss fight would only drop by approximately 1%. That doesn't seem right.

edit: if i remove stampede from rotation, my dps on femaledwarf.com only drops by 0.83%. It just feels like stampede serves no purpose now for such a high level ability. Maybe if it had some kind of utility to go along with it.
Edited by Bendak on 6/11/2013 6:53 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18150
They should've removed the more problematic aspects of Beast Mastery for PvP without completely changing the way Stampede works, or changing the damage to shots. A lot of PvPers would've been happy if the CC trinket was removed from BW, and some of the CC utility resets removed from Readiness. Those changes would've had minimal impact on PvE while balancing hunters more in PvP. Would that have been so difficult?
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100 Draenei Hunter
19795
Aside from the balance issues Bullettime brings up, this really hurts small group content in pve. I have a hard time believing that it wasn't intended for people to be able to set up a team of useful buffs/debuffs when the ability has always, even from the beta as far as I can recall, had the pets using their buff/debuff abilities. The damage and cd got adjusted a number of times through the beta, but that remained then and through eight and a half months of the expansion. You really expect us to believe you just now realized that a hunter doing the Brawler's Guild goes and picks his stable based on what his pets will bring him during the encounters? Hunter damage has in fact been balanced around this (since it's been present the entire expansion and hunters have been low enough in damage even with Stampede to have received some pretty substantial buffs), so to claim now that it wasn't intended and was left untouched for so long when something like Blink Strikes that's had an unintended effect is getting changed after just a few weeks seems disingenuous at best.

If the cc's and buffs are a problem in pvp, just make the ability unusuable in pvp. What you've done has reduced it to Army of the Dead levels-terrible and forgotten except when someone uses it at a bad time and causes problems with it. I've run it a few times on training dummies and it did around 220k damage. This was only self-buffed (attack power and aspect of the hawk), but when you consider that it's a five minute cd that last twenty seconds, that's pretty terrible, averaging out to just 733 dps. Even if it did double the damage when fully buffed (which seems extremely unlikely, though I admit I haven't done the math, but my damage overall doesn't double when I have full buffs), that's just 1.4k dps. I've been doing 130-150k dps on bosses without damage boosts. Something seems wrong with a five minute cd being used at exactly the right time with buffs/procs/etc accounting for about 1% of a person's dps.

I suppose this is a way to fight against ability bloat, which hunters admittedly suffer from greatly. If stampede remains this way, I'd just as soon have it gone and have one less thing to have to track and have a hotkey for.
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100 Orc Hunter
16295
I keep hearing the word PvP in mod responses. Why then, let is affect PvE :/? Blizz, you have made me sad today. I've been putting up with silly Hunter Nerfs for over 4 years now, and this round of nerfs is just...ugh. I still don't understand why pure dps classes seem to get stomped on, when hybrid classes seem to be favored, and overlooked :/?

I love playing my hunter, but you are making it really hard as of late to log on anymore, anytime outside of raid. Heck, I almost quit playing altogether several month ago. Especially after the Heavenly Cloud Serpent mount incident, where it wasn't even on the loot table for dang near 4 months, and you failed to realize/tell anybody until the community came together and outted you? I love mount collecting, and just the sheer lack of respect on the players part coming from you was just disgusting.

Pretty much all that has been said in this thread, with the numbers on the nerfs handed out today, has already been said, so I won't repeat them.

I just want you to know that I am very, VERY disappointed in you as of late Blizz :/. It makes me sadpanda )':.
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100 Tauren Paladin
16995
So you have to go back to May 22 to find a hotfix without a hunter nerf.
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100 Troll Hunter
15000
06/11/2013 05:47 PMPosted by Zarhym
where Hunters were managing their entire stable to bring as much crowd control, raid buffs, etc. as possible. That’s opposite of our intentions


You have got to be kidding me. We have been doing this since beta --- and now you are trying to say this was unintentional, has had far reaching ramifications, and you must gut the skill that you've forced us to mold dps rotations to accommodate?

The ability may as well be removed because it's now pointless. The only "flavor" the ability had was the ability to micromange pet cooldowns which has always been a staple of this class. We are now literally mindless button mashers who need to take almost nothing into account aside from trying to capitalize on trinket procs when possible.

The PvE community is growing extremely tired of the constant flux we are in because of Blizzard's inability to adequately balance a PvP system. The answer is very simple, and it has always been simple. Blizzard claims it's hard because their suits prefer to funnel development money into other things, like unique store mounts, pets, and battle pet spectating: Abilities should be governed by different rulesets for PvP and PvE. Blizzard, if you have the ability to change how an item procs in PvP, and change the stat values of those procs, than you can do the same for abilities. The problem with Stampede is not the ability - it's the burst and utility it provides within a short window which is exclusively relevant in arenas and nothing else.

Fix the way the ability interacts with instanced PvP and stop with the band aids every 3-6 weeks.

As a result of some of the other brilliant development decisions made for this expansion my time is limited to my main, and I am sick of having to adapt to poorly tested implementations.

Since a fairly large amount of staffed was recently reassigned to your team perhaps you can funnel some of that into proper development and testing; the half tested [at best] changes that require constant revision on live servers is extremely frustrating.
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