Help salvage S13: Fix Hunters

90 Undead Warlock
7345
I want to start by clarifying that I have no personal animosity against Hunters. I am not the typical wow pvper who wants to see xxx class nerfed into oblivion because I have a long lasting hatred toward said class. Having said that, arena is totally unplayable currently because of Hunters. Yes it is unplayable; this is not an exaggeration. There is absolutely no chance of enjoying arena while hunters exist in their current state.

I am not making this post to whine about WOW or MOP. I prefer not to do such things. I am not going to make a long post about all the changes this game needs in order to have amazing pvp. I can deal with many absurd things happening in this game. I can deal with elemental shamans getting proc after proc and doing a ton of damage without casting. I can deal with mages not casting and doing crazy damage in a deep freeze. I can deal with feral druids hitting really really hard. I can deal with death knights having more trinkets than the pvp vendor. I can deal with a destro locks chaos bolt during their cds. I can deal with shamans having a 36 sec tremor totem. I can deal with psyfiend being extremely annoying. Clearly, there are many things in this game which present unique challenges. However all of the things listed above are avoidable and/or defendable. One of the key attributes among good players is their ability to counter imbalances such as these through the use of CDs, positioning, and coordination with their team.

That is the key point where Hunters step into a realm of God status. A Hunters arsenal is such that other players are entirely subject to the will of the Hunter. If a Hunter wants, he gets. If I beat a hunter team, it’s because he failed to beat me because of his mistakes. I didn’t beat him; he beat himself. I am being 100% serious here. With all that a Hunter can do, a loss on his part is his fault. Moreover, he could have done something different and there would be no way in which I could have beaten him. That is unacceptable. This is precisely why arena currently can’t be played seriously, and more importantly it can’t be enjoyed.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Warlock
7345
I won’t list all Hunter abilities. Rather, ill list the abilities or reasons why a Hunter is so governing.

1. The damage a Hunter does is far beyond high. This is the biggest problem with Hunters. The damage output they are capable of doing is not acceptable. It’s not healable in any way. You can’t stop it, and you can’t LOS it. Hilariously, the Hunter isn’t even the one doing most of the damage. His pets are the ones doing a majority of the damage, and those pets move like superman so you aren’t getting away. I am not sure why Hunter damage went up in 5.3, but it’s out of control right now in a big way.

2. Their control is instant, there is a lot of it, it’s ranged and it’s unavoidable. You can’t stop /cast [@focus] scatter trap, or /cast [@focus] pet stun thing, or /cast [@focus] silencing shot, and they can full trap off scatter or the pet stun OR the disengage 8 sec AOE physical root. Any hunter can land a full trap if he uses his disengage root, pet stuns a healer’s partner so they can’t eat the trap, or simply coordinates with his team. However he doesn’t even need a full trap for kills BECAUSE his damage is so damn high/instant/unavoidable. To make matters worse, they can Readiness and have access to scatter, trap and silencing shot yet again lol. In past expansions, if you ate traps, you could survive hunter cleaves. It’s truly sad but this is no longer the case. This just might be from a warlock perspective, but if I try to stand on my healer for the 3 secs scatter is on him, I’ll die before the trap even activates. Literally I have to gateway the instant they connect on me or I am dead. I can’t tell you how many times I have used my pet sac, unending resolve, fel regen and healthstone all right away, only to die through all of it as if I pulled a raid boss who one shot me.

3. The hunter isn’t controllable in any reliable way for the first few mins of a game. BM provides a trinket effect, they obviously have the regular pvp trinket, and they can readiness BM too. These are 3 ways in which the Hunter is able to free himself of any CC which enables him to assert his control and damage as he sees fit. If he wanted, he has other ways to avoid additional control attempts too, but I’ll just leave those out for now. Back to the point, you can’t stun a Hunters opener, or fear or blind it. He is going to be free period. This is a massive problem because he also has the other 2 arrows in his quiver as I mentioned above (his unreal damage and his puppet master like control). If the hunter wasn’t able to do insane damage to people, then he being free would be far less of a concern. If a hunter wasn’t able to control a healer so easily, reliably, and in a way that can’t be avoided, then him being free would also not be such an issue. However he does have all this damage and all this control, so giving him the ability to remain free to assert these things makes matters infinitely direr.

These 3 main issues combined are what make Hunters the problem they are now. 5.3 brought some changes that enable me to play my warlock in a way that is somewhat enjoyable now (I can actually do some meaningful damage). I would love to que 3v3 again, but every time I do there is an onslaught of Hunter teams who basically win by default. About 80% of all 3v3 teams have a hunter, so there is no escaping them. Additionally, it’s not just warlocks who get absolutely destroyed by these Hunter teams. When you are a God among mortals, you take everyone to pound town. NO class can really enjoy arena as long as Hunters stay like they are. I sincerely hope even Hunters themselves realize it can’t be fun like this. Lebron James wouldn’t go play basketball at the local gym because it’s not fun to play versus those who stand no chance at winning.

I challenge anyone to go watch some streams of 3v3. You will see how prevalent and utterly dominant Hunters are. Even vs. top players, they impose their will with little to no effort. I know blizzard isn’t a fan of pvp only fixes but I don’t see any other way in this situation.

Their damage needs to go way down, the BM trinket effect removed altogether, and their control must be reduced (maybe make a target immune to scatter if he has been silencing shot and vice versa). No class should have it all. If nothing is done about Hunters, this season is completely lost. There is no debating that fact.

Thanks for your support and consideration.
Brodizzlex
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
14735
You can’t stop it, and you can’t LOS it

I thought we weren't exaggerating here?
06/06/2013 11:05 AMPosted by Brodizzlex
Their control is instant, there is a lot of it, it’s ranged and it’s unavoidable.

Boy was I wrong...
Edited by Verdash on 6/6/2013 11:07 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warrior
0
Agree with every point that was brought up.

1 macro button + casual deterrence, enough said.

Although, I don't really mind all of their utility & defensives as much as their pet damage being out of control and simply, can never escape it with the recent change.
Reply Quote
7 Dwarf Warrior
0
Not only do I agree with almost every aspect of this thread in terms of hunter control and dmg being too high, it's also the hunters are controlling the meta game. You either have to play a hunter comp or a comp that does decently well against hunter comps i.e. certain caster cleaves. This limits the number of teams you fight even more to the point that the one game in 10 that you don't fight a hunter team, you fight one of a handful of caster cleaves. This makes arena feel really repetitive in that you play the same 2 comp types over and over. I'm actually thrilled when I see a pmr or some other melee caster team, even though I know their mmr will be low from getting crushed by hunter teams.

I think the ideal solution would be to nerf feral/ret/shaman/dk slightly in terms of dmg and probably nerf hunter cd dmg (i.e. stampede) and make their instant cc cd slightly longer. With this I think you could get more teams surviving the hunter openers and get more interesting matches and more viable comps.

P.S. ele burst should be looked at as well
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
14735
How do you avoid a pet that hits you for 30k every second and can't be cc'd slow? Murder the pet? sure then he just gets a free instant one, by the time you kill the second pet you already lose.

CC incapacitate it? Also, they only have the revive (which is an 8 min cooldown attached to the hunter btw, hardy "free") if the pet is ferocity, which removes several important PVP tools, and if you do manage to kill the pet (looks to be like the complaints are more towards BM than anything), and either HotP is on CD or it was not Ferocity, that hunter is essentially out of the picture (damage wise at least).

And it isn't 30k every second. That is exaggerating.

06/06/2013 11:39 AMPosted by Drewzy
their control is all instant, on a short CD, and is unavoidable.

Traps are not instant, traps are avoidable. Now, if we pre-CC, that is starting to push the boundaries of avoidable, but depending on the pre-CC, RNG may cause the trap to miss you and there is nothing the hunter could do to avoid it.

And the bulk of their CC can be disarm prevented, and silence even works on several pieces of their CC. So again, hardly unavoidable.

On top of that, your teammates can eat the trap for you while you are CC'ed (for example, Priests can LoF you away, warriors can intervene to it, as easy means to avoid the trap).

i understand you're a mediocre pve hero and i have more ToT kills than u in full pvp gear, probably are 1300 in arena also, but please for the love of god dont post on things you have no idea about

I am not the one exaggerating. I never claimed hunters were either OP, or UP, in PVP. I simply pointed out the same exaggerations that have been directed at hunters since before your character even existed (potentially, I don't see a vanilla title FoS on your warlock - only reasonable way I know of to know if the character existed pre TBC or not).

Edit: One more thing, my hunter isn't raiding, my paladin is. Now my progress in ToT is still in progress, but that is a pitfall of armory bashing, it makes you look like a dumb### when you realize the toon in question is not the most active one on the account.
Edited by Verdash on 6/6/2013 12:00 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Shaman
9690
Game designers.... pls for once try to actually play ur own game. Queue into an arena as a healer and try to heal against hunter/ret. If you cant see whats wrong with it then u guys are retarded and there is no hope.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warrior
0
06/06/2013 11:54 AMPosted by Verdash
How do you avoid a pet that hits you for 30k every second and can't be cc'd slow? Murder the pet? sure then he just gets a free instant one, by the time you kill the second pet you already lose.

CC incapacitate it? Also, they only have the revive (which is an 8 min cooldown attached to the hunter btw, hardy "free") if the pet is ferocity, which removes several important PVP tools, and if you do manage to kill the pet (looks to be like the complaints are more towards BM than anything), and either HotP is on CD or it was not Ferocity, that hunter is essentially out of the picture (damage wise at least).

And it isn't 30k every second. That is exaggerating.

06/06/2013 11:39 AMPosted by Drewzy
their control is all instant, on a short CD, and is unavoidable.

Traps are not instant, traps are avoidable. Now, if we pre-CC, that is starting to push the boundaries of avoidable, but depending on the pre-CC, RNG may cause the trap to miss you and there is nothing the hunter could do to avoid it.

And the bulk of their CC can be disarm prevented, and silence even works on several pieces of their CC. So again, hardly unavoidable.

On top of that, your teammates can eat the trap for you while you are CC'ed (for example, Priests can LoF you away, warriors can intervene to it, as easy means to avoid the trap).

i understand you're a mediocre pve hero and i have more ToT kills than u in full pvp gear, probably are 1300 in arena also, but please for the love of god dont post on things you have no idea about

I am not the one exaggerating. I never claimed hunters were either OP, or UP, in PVP. I simply pointed out the same exaggerations that have been directed at hunters since before your character even existed (potentially, I don't see a vanilla title FoS on your warlock - only reasonable way I know of to know if the character existed pre TBC or not).

Edit: One more thing, my hunter isn't raiding, my paladin is. Now my progress in ToT is still in progress, but that is a pitfall of armory bashing, it makes you look like a dumb### when you realize the toon in question is not the most active one on the account.


Either trolling or you're just pathetically blind and can't see what's wrong with the current state of PvP.

Either ways, do us all a favor & stop posting useless poop please.
Edited by Arthurian on 6/6/2013 12:11 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
14735
Either trolling or you're just pathetically blind and can't see what's wrong with the current state of PvP.

Again, my only statement was that the OP (and others) are exaggerating. I have not made any claim that the state of PVP is fine as is.

I have debated a couple of exaggerations presented, that does not imply I think hunters in PVP are just fine.

Either ways, do us all a favor & stop posting useless poop please.

Funny, that was my exact thoughts about a couple of posts (or at least parts of them) in this thread...

Edit:
Their damage needs to go way down, the BM trinket effect removed altogether,

I am actually in favor of this. The mechanic was meant to provide a tool for pets to combat all the AOE CC that flies around for the BM spec. That is what it needs to revert back to

Note: not suggesting pet CC immunity, rather have something a little less crazy).

A BM Passive that fully cleanses the pet on Mend Pet application (not tick), with an 8 sec ICD would be more along the lines of what I was thinking.
Edited by Verdash on 6/6/2013 12:17 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Undead Rogue
6520
Excellent post Brodizzle
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
5120

Again, my only statement was that the OP (and others) are exaggerating. I have not made any claim that the state of PVP is fine as is.

I have debated a couple of exaggerations presented, that does not imply I think hunters in PVP are just fine.


You suggested that they cc your pet....
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
8400
Nice post agree with everything said.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warrior
0
Sure can cc the pet why not...

...jk BM, alright let's wait out his cds...

...jk readiness BM, let's pop all our defensives...

...jk you're already dead through all defensive cds.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
14735

Again, my only statement was that the OP (and others) are exaggerating. I have not made any claim that the state of PVP is fine as is.

I have debated a couple of exaggerations presented, that does not imply I think hunters in PVP are just fine.


You suggested that they cc your pet....

Force the hunter to pop BW when you want him to, not when he wants to. CC pet, and when BW pops, CC the hunter. Notice my edit above, I personally don't think the BW player trinket is good for the game, that I can agree with.

However, the complaint was how the "unavoidable" 30k damage every second from the pet. Ignoring the fact that it isn't 30k every second, CC on either the hunter or the pet will do a pretty good job of limiting that damage (until the hunter pops the previously mentioned trinket that I agree needs to be addressed).

Again, I have only been nit picking on the exaggerations, never once claimed hunter PVP was just fine.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
14735
...jk BM, alright let's wait out his cds...

Pet can be re-CC'ed after BW is popped...I sincerely hope you don't think they still have the CC immunity that was removed in 5.1.

I seriously wouldn't have any issue with this thread if you guys could just reign in your nerd rage and do your best to limit exaggerations.
Edited by Verdash on 6/6/2013 12:23 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Either trolling or you're just pathetically blind and can't see what's wrong with the current state of PvP.

Either ways, do us all a favor & stop posting useless poop please.


I think a lot of the perceived OPness of BM hunters stem from the fact that its a completely different spec. You can not shut it down as you could MM. It will always do partial damage if you cc the hunter some damage will come from the pet and vice-versa. Now their Burst is not the greatest but thanks to the changes in 5.3 they have constant pressure now and people have just never really picked up hot to counter them. Are hunters overtuned? Yes. Are they the end all be all everyone think they are? no.

Well then why are there so many different comps with them in them? Hunters are one of the best facilitators, our cc being instant all the wile our pet being able to be on target translates to minimal pressure loss when we need to cc on top of cd resets with readiness in an environment where games rarely go past 5 minutes and you have the best supporting class out there. The fact of the matter is that hunters are in so many comps because their current state makes any melee and some casters that much more dangerous.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Shaman
6370
Couldn't agree more, well said !
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warrior
0
06/06/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Verdash
...jk BM, alright let's wait out his cds...

Pet can be re-CC'ed after BW is popped...I sincerely hope you don't think they still have the CC immunity that was removed in 5.1.

I seriously wouldn't have any issue with this thread if you guys could just reign in your nerd rage and do your best to limit exaggerations.


Lol, so you're implying we should CC the hunter's pet and not the hunter when he has all his CDs popped?

It's just hilarious to read your posts because you make it look like it's PvE, target and CC, no one's gonna interrupt it.

You'd probably be dead before you can even land a CC if the hunter is tunneling damage on your while you "try" to CC the pet.

Not sure if we've been playing the same game, but as far as i know, not all classes have instant CC that'll stop a hunter's pet.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]