Ret gear for Paladin tanks? Why Blizzard?

90 Dwarf Paladin
7415
If you sort the gear in their little add on for Dungeons none of the gear for paladins has Haste on it yet if you look at all the stats roaming around about how to really set up a paladin tank alot of the pieces is RET gear because of hit/haste mostly haste.

Is this an oversight by blizzard when it comes to data for paladin tanks? It would be more fun for *me* as a paladin tank to have Parry and Dodge more important of a stat but hey im just and LFR paladin at the moment =)

ALSO RATE MY TRANSMOG

Paly ftw
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90 Human Paladin
13900
ALSO RATE MY TRANSMOG


7/10

That set has always seemed to fit Draenei better, aesthetically. Still, it's a complete set, so the lion's share of the seven points come from the majority matching. That said...

The sword and shield don't match it at all, and the use of a sword at all is really non-Dwarf. You can mog swords into axes / hammers. I'm assuming since you're Reputation capped with Stormwind that the tabard is therefore part of the ensemble and is intended as part of the whole... which is unfortunate because it doesn't really match anything.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10225
With the loot-specialization thingy added in 5.3, you can set your loot spec to Ret and get haste pieces even while being a tank. It's not a perfectly ideal setup, but it's better than pre-5.3, where you had to queue as Ret to get proper tank gear...
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90 Dwarf Paladin
7415
thats my question to blizzard is why is ret gear better for paladin tanks - if Haste is so much better for paladin tanks put it on paladin tank gear. I dont want ret gear. Alot of stuff lately by blizzard seems abit odd.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10225
I'd be all for haste gear appearing on the Prot loot tables/on tier sets, but the class forums are for communicating with other players. If you want to communicate with the Blizzard devs, this isn't a good place to post about it.

This isn't a new topic, though; indications seem to be that haste being our best stat was kind of accidental, but they didn't want to gut everyone who'd already geared up, so they've allowed it to stay. The 5.2 Grand Crusader change was designed to make dodge/parry less unattractive compared to haste gear, for example. It's also quite possible that 6.0 will see the idea "tank gear" completely reworked, since dodge and parry have pretty much always been lackluster stats in the first place, and the active mitigation model of MoP has really brought that into the spotlight.
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90 Tauren Paladin
16825

This isn't a new topic, though; indications seem to be that haste being our best stat was kind of accidental, but they didn't want to gut everyone who'd already geared up, so they've allowed it to stay. The 5.2 Grand Crusader change was designed to make dodge/parry less unattractive compared to haste gear, for example. It's also quite possible that 6.0 will see the idea "tank gear" completely reworked, since dodge and parry have pretty much always been lackluster stats in the first place, and the active mitigation model of MoP has really brought that into the spotlight.


The nerf to Shield of the righteous did not help matters, as that makes mastery (the other part of our active mitigation) worse. However, for paladins of our gear level the BiS gear is 4/5 teir (off set pants with haste) a str DPS/tank hybrid (hit/exp) the crafted str haste boots, haste belt and bracers, 1 stam trink and the other a haste or hit one and the 600 str dps cloak (only piece with base crit). I don't consider haste gear ret gear, but I do still consider crit gear DPS gear as crit is still near useless to non-leather tanks.
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90 Human Paladin
7295

Is this an oversight by blizzard when it comes to data for paladin tanks? It would be more fun for *me* as a paladin tank to have Parry and Dodge more important of a stat but hey im just and LFR paladin at the moment =)


How is Dodge and parry more fun exactly ? You stand there doing nothing and the system uses an RNG to see if you take damage or not. That's not my definition of fun. If anything, Prot gear with haste ( because I consider Haste gear to be Prot gear, not Ret gear) is much more fun, giving you a much more interactive experience and requires you to actually use abilities to survive rather than tabbing out on forums while tanking.

If Blizzard wants to encourage tanking, dodge and parry will vanish 100% from fear next expat and all tanks will just use the same gear as every other spec.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11460
I find haste tanking so much more enjoyable than the normal dodge, parry build. Also with dodgy and parry you get very dodgy (see what I did there) unreliable mitigation where as with haste, expertise and hit you get timed very strong mitigation. That and glyph of the battle healer+insane DPS turns me into a god :P
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90 Draenei Paladin
8355
Personally, I always kind of liked this change. It means I can switch out from Ret to Prot without having to carry around a whole set of gear in my bags. Just a board and sword, when needed.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14930
if Haste is so much better for paladin tanks put it on paladin tank gear. I dont want ret gear.

Uh, this doesn't make any sense at all. If you want haste on your prot gear, then how is that different than wanting ret gear? How could they put haste on the tank gear without it just becoming ret gear? I guess haste/dodge or haste/parry, but that would still be inferior to haste/mastery, haste/hit or haste/expertise.

Active mitigation is here to stay. It is far more fun/interesting than dodge/parry because we are actually keeping ourselves alive instead of just standing there and letting the gear and rng handle all of our survivability.

There are only 2 possible futures for tank gear:
1) as Berith (and others) have suggested, they'll completely remove dodge and parry from gear, and plate tanks will use haste crit and mastery as forms of active mitigation, using the same gear as plate dps (basically the same boat that the leather tanks are in with leather dps). Heck, if they went this route, they could even move tankadins back to spellpower/int instead of strength so that holy isn't the only spec that uses that gear (they probably wouldn't because it'd probably create a lot of lashback, but barring that there's no reason it couldn't work).

2) blizzard *could* actually remove haste as a tanking stat for paladins and instead work dodge and parry into more involved roles in the active mitigation model (because it's the actual act of active mitigation that's fun, it doesn't really matter which stats we're stacking, as long as it contributes to the active mitigation playstyle we'll be happy). For example, they could give us a parry-haste like effect where when we parry an attack it reduces the cds on our abilities by some amount, then we could stack parry for a similar effect as what haste gives us now. Or they could be lazy and just move SoB to work off of one of our avoidance stats for prot instead of haste (ie instead of our gcd/acds being reduced by melee haste they could be reduced by parry%)

Both options would work. It's just a matter of whether blizzard wants tanks to continue to have separate gear from dps or not.
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90 Human Paladin
7295
SoB to work off of one of our avoidance stats for prot instead of haste (ie instead of our gcd/acds being reduced by melee haste they could be reduced by parry%)


Doesn't make much sense though. "Haste" making stuff happen faster is logical. Parry making you be able to do more crusader strikes ? illogical.

I don't really see what the hang up with certain folks on keeping the avoidance stats around and "trying to make them useful!".

If anything, I'd simply stats ever more. Haste, Mastery, Expertise. Drop hit/dodge/parry entirely.
Edited by Berith on 6/5/2013 1:21 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14930
Doesn't make much sense though. "Haste" making stuff happen faster is logical. Parry making you be able to do more crusader strikes ? illogical.
Just as logical as many other mechanics. Why would more spirit increase the chance for a boomkin to hit? Why does attack power convert to spell power for tankadins? Why do hunter pets gain stats for gear their master is wearing? Why does dodging something reset the cd on AS? There's no logical reason for any of these things. They're simply mechanics for the sake of balance and gameplay.

As for the "hangup" on keeping avoidance stats around, because there's no actual need to get rid of them. There's a reason that different classes and different roles use different gear, a reason why there are plate helms, mail helms, leather helms, cloth helms, strength helms, agility helms, intellect helms, spirit helms, all of that instead of there just being "helms" with "+awesome" that anyone can use and increase their performance of whatever role they have. There's a careful balance between specialization and homogenization. Make loot too specialized and items are desired by too few people and loot becomes frustrating when nobody in the group can use what dropped or when after weeks upon weeks your item has never dropped because of loot table bloat. Make loot too homogenized and it starts to matter less and less what dropped and just becomes a question of "who gets loot this time". That's why there's 3 of each tier token that can only be used by certain classes instead of there just being a "shoulder token" that anyone can use. Because then you wouldn't care that "your" token dropped, it always drops, all that matters is when it's your turn, which gets boring and predictable.

That balance needs to be considered every time they entertain the idea of homogenizing gear. Do they really want ALL plate specs (minus holy pallies) to be after the same items? Or do they want to keep tanks interested in their gear and dps interested in there gear with only a few items (hit/exp/mast) overlapping? Look at cloth, when they did the spirit->hit thing for hybrids they *could* have done the same thing for warlocks and mages and then they wouldn't have to make hit-cloth (or int/hit rings, necks, cloaks, or weapons) anymore, but instead they decided that they wanted there to be dps-cloth, healing-cloth, and then a few items that work for both.

That's why I posted 2 possible paths they could do. If they decide that homogenizing tank and dps gear will be fine, then they'll make haste and crit more useful as established tank stats. Or if they decide they don't want that much homogenization then they'll need to make avoidance stats contribute to active mitigation. I only gave a couple suggestions for how they could do it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6505
They will have to change it in the next big patch or expansion. Its too many specs using the same gear...

Ret pally, prot pally, arms/fury warrior, frost/unholy dk, blood dk.

how guilds with a a blood dk and prot paladin tanks and 2 plate dps do with loot ( in 10m)

It was normal to bring diferent specs of the same classe/armor type, because they didnt share gear.

This whole tank using dps stats, while fun for them, really messed up gear distribution, raid gearing up process and composition.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
...Are Bloods using DPS gear, too? I though they still kept after tank gear? Or were you simply referring to their use of two-handers?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6505
blood beneficts of haste too, to some extent.
Edited by Ikai on 6/6/2013 9:44 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
blood beneficts of haste too, to some extent.

But not very much. In general Blood prioritizes mastery way above everything else, with stamina under mastery and then the rest below that. I imagine haste/mastery gear would be decent enough for them, but you're not going to see them taking haste/hit or haste/expertise (or even haste/crit in some cases) gear like we do.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11665
A prot pally took a hit/mastery chest last night even though I won the roll because it's considered an OS item for ret paladins which really pissed me off even though I just wanted to disenchant it for the spirits.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10225
Chestplate of Violent Detonation isn't offspec for Ret, unless the run was using some pretty weird loot rules.

...although rolling for DE over somebody actually using the item is generally poor form...
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90 Tauren Paladin
16825
They will have to change it in the next big patch or expansion. Its too many specs using the same gear...Ret pally, prot pally, arms/fury warrior, frost/unholy dk, blood dk.


There are still some pieces that scream DPS over tank, like prot paladins may benefit from haste, we still don't benefit much from crit .

how guilds with a a blood dk and prot paladin tanks and 2 plate dps do with loot ( in 10m)


Pirority
Blood DK: tank gear
Prot paladin: tank gear, non-crit str gear
Plate DPS: Crit str gear
Can go to any: determined by loot system

Haste is not strictly a one spec or other stat any more, it really has become a "do what you do, just do it more" stat.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8700
7/10
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