Ret PVP Trinket

90 Human Paladin
8975
With the recent 5.3 changes to Pvp power, are there any LFR ToT trinkets that would be better to use than the current Tyrranical pvp ones?

Thanks in advance.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14055
Relic of Xuen it's not from LFR but it destroys the pvp ones right now.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17735
Save your valor points and use Brutal Talisman of the Shado Pan, is the best trink out there for PvP ATM.
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90 Human Paladin
8975
Thank you for the replies...

But I read in forums that Brutal talisman of Shado Pan did less damage in BG/Arenas.. instead of 8k strength buff it only had 3k buff.. can someone confirm?
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90 Human Paladin
6985
Shado Pan trinket is severely nerfed in PvP. He's either trolling or dumb. Relic of Xuen is your best choice.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8420
Fabled Feather is best imo.

It has a 22s ICD, and in PVP it lasts 40 seconds.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17735
Thank you for the replies...

But I read in forums that Brutal talisman of Shado Pan did less damage in BG/Arenas.. instead of 8k strength buff it only had 3k buff.. can someone confirm?


It gives 4400 str buff in PvP, It has 30 seconds uptime in arenas and also it helps you with the constant hunters/Melee cleaves that are out there (meaning that you will hardly get dodged or parried).

I've Tested relic vs shado pan and Relic is just good vs casters and there are more hunt/x/heal than any caster cleaves.

Also Shado pan aligns almost perfectly with our burst CDs.
Edited by Faeria on 6/8/2013 12:03 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14055
Thank you for the replies...

But I read in forums that Brutal talisman of Shado Pan did less damage in BG/Arenas.. instead of 8k strength buff it only had 3k buff.. can someone confirm?


It gives 4400 str buff in PvP, It has 30 seconds uptime in arenas and also it helps you with the constant hunters/Melee cleaves that are out there (meaning that you will hardly get dodged or parried).

I've Tested relic vs shado pan and Relic is just good vs casters and there are more hunt/x/heal than any caster cleaves.

Also Shado pan aligns almost perfectly with our burst CDs.


Whether you've tested or not Relic mathematically is better. The flat strength on it combined with the proc destroy the benefits from brutal talisman.

that 4400 str proc is the same amount of strength as relic of xuen during its proc, xuen has similar uptime and the flat strength is infinitely better than 2% expertise that you don't actually need regardless of how you try to justify it. I don't know why you aren't pet stunning or hojing your kill target against cleaves and if you're not then they have more than 5% dodge/parry anyways.

Also I'm not sure how you can say talisman lines up with your cds better, it's a 75 second ICD and if you're using guardian because you saw it proc in reference to the 30 second duration that's extremely poor cooldown usage, doubtful you'll have proper CD at the point or not get controlled.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17735
Whether you've tested or not Relic mathematically is better. The flat strength on it combined with the proc destroy the benefits from brutal talisman.


Yes mathematically is "better", did the math and it is really a 300-350 average more str using the relic, which really doesnt matter in a burst game you will want a bursty trinket instead of sustained damage which really doesn't benefit ret at all because we do not rely on sustained damage.

06/08/2013 03:34 AMPosted by Martymcfly
xuen has similar uptime and the flat strength is infinitely better than 2% expertise that you don't actually need regardless of how you try to justify it.


If you don't think that 2.7% expertise makes little to no difference in arenas then you don't know what you're talking about, it takes 3% to cap yourself in PvP scenarios, 2.5% reduces DRASTICALLY the amount of dodge and parries that you get during an arena match.

I don't know why you aren't pet stunning or hojing your kill target against cleaves and if you're not then they have more than 5% dodge/parry anyways.


Because you will not always HoJ your target to get the kill, also most of arenas matches you will never get a kill by spamming HoJ on your target.

Also I'm not sure how you can say talisman lines up with your cds better, it's a 75 second ICD and if you're using guardian because you saw it proc in reference to the 30 second duration that's extremely poor cooldown usage, doubtful you'll have proper CD at the point or not get controlled.


It procs as soon as the arena starts it last for good 30 seconds, if you don't burst in the first 30 seconds then you're doing something wrong, and it procs again by half the cooldowns and by the time you get your cds again the trinket procs and it last 30 seconds the entire duration of your cooldowns, you will hardly get a full trinket proc using relic trinket.
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90 Human Paladin
3200
I got the Relic of Xuen and its much worth for 8k I spent. Huuuge boost in my dps, suggest you to get that one as a Ret.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14055
06/08/2013 11:23 AMPosted by Faeria
Whether you've tested or not Relic mathematically is better. The flat strength on it combined with the proc destroy the benefits from brutal talisman.


Yes mathematically is "better", did the math and it is really a 300-350 average more str using the relic, which really doesnt matter in a burst game you will want a bursty trinket instead of sustained damage which really doesn't benefit ret at all because we do not rely on sustained damage.

06/08/2013 03:34 AMPosted by Martymcfly
xuen has similar uptime and the flat strength is infinitely better than 2% expertise that you don't actually need regardless of how you try to justify it.


If you don't think that 2.7% expertise makes little to no difference in arenas then you don't know what you're talking about, it takes 3% to cap yourself in PvP scenarios, 2.5% reduces DRASTICALLY the amount of dodge and parries that you get during an arena match.

I don't know why you aren't pet stunning or hojing your kill target against cleaves and if you're not then they have more than 5% dodge/parry anyways.


Because you will not always HoJ your target to get the kill, also most of arenas matches you will never get a kill by spamming HoJ on your target.

Also I'm not sure how you can say talisman lines up with your cds better, it's a 75 second ICD and if you're using guardian because you saw it proc in reference to the 30 second duration that's extremely poor cooldown usage, doubtful you'll have proper CD at the point or not get controlled.


It procs as soon as the arena starts it last for good 30 seconds, if you don't burst in the first 30 seconds then you're doing something wrong, and it procs again by half the cooldowns and by the time you get your cds again the trinket procs and it last 30 seconds the entire duration of your cooldowns, you will hardly get a full trinket proc using relic trinket.


What you don't understand is brutal talisman never gives you more strength than relic however when the procs aren't up relic gives you more strength than talisman. 1000 strength is always better than 1100 expertise if you're above 3%. I have 20% parry in my gear, so with your extra 2.5% expertise you're still getting parried by me 14% of the time, when a warrior pops his die by the sword you're not reducing his parry at all, when a rogue evasions you're still getting dodged.

But yeah I'm sure that 5% expertise means you almost never get dodged or parried.

Also in terms of lining up with your CDs xuen is WAY more likely too. the 75 second ICD on talisman means it'll proc early on then proc again when wings is about 30-40 seconds away depending when you popped them, then the third proc will be after your wings, about a minute before your next wings and then the fourth proc will be after your 3rd wings assuming the game somehow lasts that long.

Xuen on the other hand is up much more frequently, it'll proc on your first set of cooldowns, proc again when wings is about a minute away then proc again when wings comes up and it continues that cycle.
Edited by Martymcfly on 6/8/2013 12:48 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17735
1000 strength is always better than 1100 expertise if you're above 3%


Reforge

06/08/2013 12:40 PMPosted by Martymcfly
I have 20% parry in my gear, so with your extra 2.5% expertise you're still getting parried by me 14% of the time, when a warrior pops his die by the sword you're not reducing his parry at all, when a rogue evasions you're still getting dodged.


Of course the trinket will not help you with those CDs that's what they're meant to, but you almost nullify the passive dodge that rogues/ferals/hunter have and that's a LOT, vs melee you will reduce greatly the amount of parry you get, don't trust me? Try it.

Also in terms of lining up with your CDs xuen is WAY more likely too. the 75 second ICD on talisman means it'll proc early on then proc again when wings is about 30-40 seconds away depending when you popped them, then the third proc will be after your wings, about a minute before your next wings and then the fourth proc will be after your 3rd wings assuming the game somehow lasts that long


What you're ignoring is that xuen aligns with the cooldowns yeah, but it las only 15 seconds and "align" doesn't mean that you will be bursting every 2 min, sometimes you have to wait longer to burst o wait for that "small window" when you can score a kill or force them to use a lot of CDs, and that's why Brutal is better than xuen, it always procs when I have to score a kill or burst, and for arenas you will never get to use more than 2 guardians, either they will die or you will lose.

Xuen on the other hand is up much more frequently, it'll proc on your first set of cooldowns, proc again when wings is about a minute away then proc again when wings comes up and it continues that cycle.


As I said above, it procs when the CD is ready, but if you spam the burst macro as soon it is available then you're doing something wrong, if most you will use it almost at the first 30 seconds of the arena encounter, but you should almost NEVER burst as soon it is available until you have a good kill chance.

Also the expertise as I said, ends up giving more sustained than xuen vs hunter/melee comp, because of no dodges.

and as I said above, vs casters comps Xuen ends up being best.
Edited by Faeria on 6/8/2013 1:36 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14055
You will still get dodged and parried by hunter/melee comps I don't know why you're trying to say you won't get dodged. Hunters have at least 11% dodge.

Yes there will be times where your talisman lines up with your second burst window but there's also a large number of times where it procs before you want it to and you have to wait a minute and a half before gaining any benefit from your trinket at all because it has passive expertise instead of strength.

You can't reforge strength, you are 2.8% above the point where expertise becomes a !@#$ stat. If you were getting to 3% with the talisman you'd be correct but since you're above you're getting half the benefit from that expertise making it a garbage stat. There's just no justifiable situation where expertise outdoes strength above 3%.

I'm not ignoring the 30 second duration it's just entirely irrelevant. What's relevant is when it comes up. And it's extremely unlikely that it will come up for its second time when you have wings or are bursting because of its ridiculously long ICD.

btw the reason 3% is so good is because everybody has 3% dodge and or 3% parry, as such up to 3% you're getting double the effect of expertise however beyond that you're wasting stats because you are only lowering their dodge or parry and it's not feasible to reach a point where dodges and parries no longer happen altogether.
Edited by Martymcfly on 6/8/2013 1:48 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17735
You will still get dodged and parried by hunter/melee comps I don't know why you're trying to say you won't get dodged. Hunters have at least 11% dodge.


Because it gets reduced drastically, as I said, if you don't believe me try it, unless i've been having a good RNG since I got the trinket.

Yes there will be times where your talisman lines up with your second burst window but there's also a large number of times where it procs before you want it to and you have to wait a minute and a half before gaining any benefit from your trinket at all because it has passive expertise instead of strength.


As I said before, less dodges/parries equals to more sustained damage than having 1k str baseline vs those kind of comps.

You can't reforge strength, you are 2.8% above the point where expertise becomes a !@#$ stat. If you were getting to 3% with the talisman you'd be correct but since you're above you're getting half the benefit from that expertise making it a garbage stat. There's just no justifiable situation where expertise outdoes strength above 3%.


Read my past statements.

I'm not ignoring the 30 second duration it's just entirely irrelevant. What's relevant is when it comes up. And it's extremely unlikely that it will come up for its second time when you have wings or are bursting because of its ridiculously long ICD.


As I said if you don't believe me try it, its almost there when you need it.

btw the reason 3% is so good is because everybody has 3% dodge and or 3% parry, as such up to 3% you're getting double the effect of expertise however beyond that you're wasting stats because you are only lowering their dodge or parry and it's not feasible to reach a point where dodges and parries no longer happen altogether.


I've tried both Xuen and Talisman since 5.3 came out, I've made the maths where Xuen in a theroical scenario is better than talisman, you can run all the simcraft, math number you want but as I said before in practice Talisman outshines slightly Xuen vs the current dominant Comp, whereas if casters show up you will end up using Xuen.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14055
You're impossible. You're wrong and you keep repeating the same incorrect points. You "having good rng" since getting the talisman is a completely moot point. I've been having good RNG without talisman. I've used talisman and I consider it significantly worse, after switching to relic I noticed a large increase in my damage.

Let's think about your logic here ok? You're saying that the extra expertise is worthwhile from talisman even though it's on about a 1:1 trade off. Expertise gems are a 2:1 tradeoff with strength gems yet you still use strength gems instead of expertise gems. Why? Because even at a 2:1 ratio strength outdoes expertise above 3%. Now the trinket provides a 1:1 ratio and you're trying to say that the expertise is better. You're just flat out wrong.

"try it, its almost there when you need it" yeah I know that's a typo but that's my experience. When I needed talisman it was ALMOST there and I was getting no benefit from the expertise because it's a garbage stat.

Now beyond that point, Vanguards the best ret in the world by far is using relic over talisman, even on his alliance ret pally he uses the proc pvp trinket over talisman because sustained damage outdoes talisman's !@#$ty expertise. I'm going to ask his opinions next time I see him streaming and I'm almost positive he'll say the same thing I'm telling you here.

however if you're so convinced that your expertise is better, you should really go swap out your strength gems.
Edited by Martymcfly on 6/8/2013 3:19 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17735
06/08/2013 03:18 PMPosted by Martymcfly
You're impossible. You're wrong and you keep repeating the same incorrect points.


Prove me wrong then, since all you did say to me is "Math and theory proves me right", when in fact theory is not 100% right.

I've used talisman and I consider it significantly worse, after switching to relic I noticed a large increase in my damage.


If you did the math you will notice that it is a "slightly" difference in damage, you can't argue that there's a "large increase" in damage, therefore you need to express better, not that I do it right because english is my 2nd language.

06/08/2013 03:18 PMPosted by Martymcfly
Let's think about your logic here ok? You're saying that the extra expertise is worthwhile from talisman even though it's on about a 1:1 trade off. Expertise gems are a 2:1 tradeoff with strength gems yet you still use strength gems instead of expertise gems. Why? Because even at a 2:1 ratio strength outdoes expertise above 3%.


Strenght =! expertise speaking about gems, we're talking about Trinkets and what stats they have, why would I want to trade off expertise for str gem in my gear that also gives me other stats such as PvP power and haste AND also expertise is reforged out of the trinket.

06/08/2013 03:18 PMPosted by Martymcfly
Now beyond that point, Vanguards the best ret in the world by far is using relic over talisman, even on his alliance ret pally he uses the proc pvp trinket over talisman because sustained damage outdoes talisman's !@#$ty expertise.


Just told him on the stream that Talisman > Xuen and he say its probably right but he doesn't want to try it because he likes to play with relic better.

Also as a Human you would want proc trinkets that align up altogether, making talisman really bad for humans since you get more benefit using both proc trinkets that have almost the same ICD and last almos for the same giving you huge amounts of PvP Power AND burst damage.

however if you're so convinced that your expertise is better, you should really go swap out your strength gems.


This is a post about trinket and which one is better for PvP, which Talisman IS better for certain comps wheras Xuen is better for casters, you're really making yourself look bad doing a dumb comparison between gems and trinkets...
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14055
He hasn't been streaming all day, so please do tell me how you asked him lol.

Stats are stats regardless of where you get them, if talisman had flat strength on it instead of expertise I would absolutely agree and I would use it however since it has expertise it's just a major loss in your sustained damage for a minor increase in your burst if the stars align.

I really don't understand why you're trying to fight this so hard, the relic is just straight up better. "theory isn't always right" is a moot point, if you've had success with your talisman you would've had more success in the same situation with relic.

The expertise is wasted no matter how you try to argue it let me explain this to you.

people will have about 10% or 20% dodge/parry above the 3 expertise we normally have so:

with 10% - 50 dodges would be from 500 attacks (1 out of 10 dodges giving the 50 dodges), the person without the 2% expertise would have 50 of those dodge meaning 450 attacks landed with the extra 1000 strength which is a significant boost to the damage of all of those attacks.

The person with 2% expertise they have 8% dodge meaning in 500 attacks 40 attacks dodge, so you land 460 attacks instead of 450.

with 20% - 50 dodges would be from 250 attacks (1 out of 5 dodges giving the 50 dodges), the person without the 2% expertise would have 50 of those dodge meaning 200 attacks landed with the extra 1000 strength, still a very significant boost to the damage of those attacks

The person with 2% expertise they have 18% dodge meaning in 250 attacks 45 dodge, so you landed 205 attacks instead of 200.

And then lets go even further than that and look into our judgement and exorcism which each are a HUGE portion of our damage and can be neither dodged nor parried. As well as censure all 3 of these scale with strength but not expertise.

So when I say attacks that means crusader strikes, templar's verdicts and white swings because those are the only abilities we use that can be parried. (of course hammer of the righteous the odd time to keep up the 10% debuff)

Do you understand how insignificant that is now?
Edited by Martymcfly on 6/8/2013 8:48 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17735
06/08/2013 08:41 PMPosted by Martymcfly
He hasn't been streaming all day, so please do tell me how you asked him lol.


Yesterday at night, and a day before and by "just asked" I meant those days.

Stats are stats regardless of where you get them


They are stats but are not considered IE sometimes you reforge for X stat and gem for Y, you're clearly mixing apples and oranges here, both are fruit but not the same.

06/08/2013 08:41 PMPosted by Martymcfly
it has expertise it's just a major loss in your sustained damage for a minor increase in your burst if the stars align.


It is not a "major loss" if you do the math you will notice that, trinkets choices are about 1/2% extra damage and not game breaking choices but the "best", and in this case you can play with both but the best will always be the one that gets you to increase your chances to win, in this case (and this expansion) burst is the key to win.

06/08/2013 08:41 PMPosted by Martymcfly
I really don't understand why you're trying to fight this so hard, the relic is just straight up better. "theory isn't always right" is a moot point, if you've had success with your talisman you would've had more success in the same situation with relic.


I tried but and I'm really doing better with talisman, if I werent I wouldn't be posting this to begin with, its just dumb to see people saying "go Relic because math or because X person says" without really trying different choices.

he expertise is wasted no matter how you try to argue it let me explain this to you.

people will have about 10% or 20% dodge/parry above the 3 expertise we normally have so:

with 10% - 50 dodges would be from 500 attacks (1 out of 10 dodges giving the 50 dodges), the person without the 2% expertise would have 50 of those dodge meaning 450 attacks landed with the extra 1000 strength which is a significant boost to the damage of all of those attacks.


Youre using % wrong, If you have a 5% chance to miss/dodge is that a 5%, you can get extremely unlicky and get 5 dodge in a row, that's why it is important to cap TO REDUCE that gap and RNG, or do you really eat that out that 50% chance means that 1 out of 2 attacks will do the trick? you could still fail 5 attacks in a row with at50% chance.

And then lets go even further than that and look into our judgement and exorcism which each are a HUGE portion of our damage and can be neither dodged nor parried. As well as censure all 3 of these scale with strength but not expertise.


Our big damage in burst comes from templar verdict and crusader strike, if you get 2 dodge in a row you will hardly do any noticeable damage.

Do you understand how insignificant that is now?


I think this applies to you sir.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14055
*facepalm* you're hopeless.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17735
*facepalm* you're hopeless.


Gave up already?
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