Healing with no addons or macros seen as bad?

91 Night Elf Druid
9335


You think "anyone" who says they do a good job by clicking and then hitting the heal as a disc priest is delusional?


Yes. If you click to target, then click a heal, you are not healing well. You are a detriment to your raid. You are doing *worse* than you could be if you weren't being stubborn for no reason.


You're being more stubborn than I. I feel any player playing their most comfortable will make them perform at their best. You feel that any player who plays the way you do is what will make them perform at their best, and therefore any player who does not play the way you do is a detriment to their raid.

I certainly hope you are not involved in recruitment for your raid, because that makes you a detriment to your raid.
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100 Troll Druid
11955
It's not even that. There's really no meaningful delay compared to mouseover caused by targeted healing. To say it's detrimental to your raid is just stupidity.
Raid awareness, Spell selection, and proactive play are such larger factors it really makes no difference.

To prempt, the time you spend clicking the target is the same time you spend verifying you've got the person mouseover'd. You're already using a saccade either way unless you knew you were going to cast the heal on them, in which case, As Marathel says, it makes no difference at all. It requires some eye-hand coordination, however.


There are some players like Gamex who are very good at this type of healing but I wouldn't say it's exactly the same in every situation and certainly not equal if no mouse-overs are used.

For example, there are times that require fast or instant healing that doesn't fall within the CGD window. In such a hypothetical case, let's say one is in the middle of casting a spell on one player when major damage happens to another raid member.

They have to a:stop casting >b:physically click target>c:cast. Our spell in this example is Nature's Swiftness+Healing Touch in a macro.

That's an extra step over VuhDo. For example, same situation, All I need to do is move my mouse over frame and cast. VuhDo has a feature to stop casting the moment I hit another spell key (my macro bind). You see I don't need to "verify" anything.

To target someone manually means a slight delay over not having to manually 'click' the frame and where speed is a concern it's slower.

Now if one is using mouse-over macros it's just like VuhDo and this argument is null & void. But if you don't use macros you're slower and that's a fact.
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89 Tauren Priest
3580
End of random dungeon, I dinged to level 82, Tank asked what addons I used.
I looked at him and said, "There are addons for healing now?"

Apparently there have always been addons for healing. Frankly the only addons and things I use are for aesthetics. Or RP.

If you use addons or healbots or macros, fine, whatever. I don't care. I have more fun healing without.

So long as you are good at healing, how you do it is unimportant.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
06/09/2013 01:54 AMPosted by Marathel
Yes. If you click to target, then click a heal, you are not healing well. You are a detriment to your raid. You are doing *worse* than you could be if you weren't being stubborn for no reason.


As long as you do it within the GCD it's irrelevant. Having said that it's just one way to heal. Nothing more or less.


I don't think that's physically possible, tbh. He's not saying, "If you target, then hit a keybind, you're bad." He's saying, "If you click a target, then have to move your mouse down to the bottom of the screen, find the correct button, and click it, you're going to be slow."

He's right. It's pretty much the same thing as "clickers" for DPSing and Healing.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
End of random dungeon, I dinged to level 82, Tank asked what addons I used.
I looked at him and said, "There are addons for healing now?"

Apparently there have always been addons for healing. Frankly the only addons and things I use are for aesthetics. Or RP.

If you use addons or healbots or macros, fine, whatever. I don't care. I have more fun healing without.

So long as you are good at healing, how you do it is unimportant.


While I agree with you to an extent, there are reasons why raid replacement addons are, in some ways, superior to the default raid frames. The most pressing reason, for me, is honestly in how they display buffs and debuffs. The ability to differentiate between debuffs, or to even see debuffs you can't dispel but which are harmful to whomever they are on (so that you can know to watch that person) is extremely important to a healer doing any sort of difficult content.

The best example I can give is the Heroic Spine encounter in Dragon Soul during Cata. During that fight, there was a debuff that went out every time you got one of the big adds. It started off as a harmful debuff that if you didn't dispel a certain number of times would explode your raid. So you needed to dispel it until it turned into a different debuff that was helpful and that you wanted to have a certain number of them out on the tanks and raid members. However, BOTH were magic debuffs, and the only way to tell the difference was the icon itself. You needed to see both because when you dispelled the debuff it would bounce to another player, and again, you wanted the GOOD debuff spread around the raid. I personally had such trouble seeing immediately which debuff was which that I went into my addon - VuhDo - and changed the way the hamful debuff was displayed so that I would immediately know where it was (I changed it to turn the bar bright red) as opposed to just seeing magical debuffs EVERYWHERE.

This was something that I simply couldn't do with the default raid frames. And it was something that I very much needed to make that fight go smoothly. Now, it's entirely possible that this indicates that I'm somehow bad or whatever, but that doesn't really bother me. I remain more concerned with getting the fight down than with clinging to some silly idea that if I don't use addons, I'm somehow "cooler." (I should not that I am NOT saying that you are suggesting this, Gomir. It's more of a general statement!)
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
I think I need to write a far better explanation and elaborate here which I will using my paladin for example but this can be applied to all healers to various extends. There are several questions that must be answered and known beforehand.

1)What is the cast time of my spell?

2)What is the GCD of such a spell?

3)What is going on around me?

4)Who am I trying to heal?

5)How I'm going to heal?

Sometimes there are spells you just need to hit and not worry about targeting at all. There are two constraints regarding speed of cast and situation awareness.

1)Cast time

2)GCD

The moment I hit Holy Radiance I initiate the GCD. But the cast time without buffs is 2.1 seconds. So before the spell is even finished casting the GCD finishes. But I cannot cast anymore spells until it finishes. I can cancel it and cast another with a macro so to speak or I can cancel because I do not need it anymore. There are a variety of ways a situation unfolds but here is an example of say a place like Rampage in Maegara.

HR-HR-HS is a simple rotation that is just mashing buttons one after the other and in succession. My biggest problem here is not to do it so I'll miss a second or two in hitting Holy Shock thus hurting my healing capability because my timing was off. GCD here is irrelevant.

Second situation is I hit HR-HR-HS but instead of LOD I find that the tank is a little lower than the rest. So I want to hit him with an EF. THE GCD FOR WHEN YOU HIT HOLY SHOCK and gain that third holy power as well as hit Daybreak is the same if you use add ons or click.

If you hit the tank within that GCD of when holy shock is hit then you hit it exactly the same speed as anyone else healing any other way. There is absolutely no difference at all. For the very simple reason that the GCD exists.

Spells like rejuv where the GCD is less than a second you obviously need far faster reflexes for it to be equal yet it is still possible if you are a very fast clicker. Spells off the GCD on the other hand DO HAVE A DELAY and here I'm just relaying information. I'm not advocating anything. If one does not have addons to go around the delay is simple

1)Pro active. There are near always a few seconds one can use before big damage phases that renders the delay irrelevant 99 percent of the time

2)The small delay is shifted into the spell itself but pre casting before the damage hits let's you even it out or overall have a net gain during the duration.

3)Macros are great to erase that delay if you do not want it. Or if someone does have add ons they simply click, use macros or whatever to achieve what they wish without a delay. Either way works, either way requires different things.

The only time when you click it TRULY, TRULY falls behind in complex situations is if u find yourself doing a complex healing rotation using very fast spells. The biggest example of this was H ultraxion.

Casting .6 second HR's on every member of the raid group and spamming it at the same time was simply impossible doing it efficiently by clicking. You're talking about ridiculous reaction times and reflexes. No robot here. It was solved however simply by keybinding. But doing the full click was highly inefficient.

TLDR-As long as the GCD exists this way of healing will exist. It's as simple as that and it's just a way to heal. Nothing more or less. My point is when regarding to healing there are many different ways you can go about it and what is most comfortable to you CAN be made to work. It can and it makes it no lesser than other ways if you do it right. But getting addons are the most stable way in my opinion.
Edited by Marathel on 6/9/2013 5:21 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
I don't think that's physically possible, tbh. He's not saying, "If you target, then hit a keybind, you're bad." He's saying, "If you click a target, then have to move your mouse down to the bottom of the screen, find the correct button, and click it, you're going to be slow."


If you're slow it's slow. If you're fast and do it within the GCD it's the same thing. Other times it doesn't matter. Simply because you're bound by the cast time. If you want to cancel it, do another spell, move or the like you're simply putting the old rules back in place then more questions pop up which can or cannot matter.

Also Tiriel for most spells it's quite possible even if it requires great muscle memory, fast reflexes and very good awareness.

Now spells like rejuv is far, far harder because the GCD is less than a second but still possible if one wants to go that route. Honestly though if I was telling all of this to a beginner I would recommend they get an add on. I play this way simply because it's been a very long time and I didn't have anyone to help me or encourage to try different things.
Edited by Marathel on 6/9/2013 5:19 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
There are some players like Gamex who are very good at this type of healing but I wouldn't say it's exactly the same in every situation and certainly not equal if no mouse-overs are used.

For example, there are times that require fast or instant healing that doesn't fall within the CGD window. In such a hypothetical case, let's say one is in the middle of casting a spell on one player when major damage happens to another raid member.

They have to a:stop casting >b:physically click target>c:cast. Our spell in this example is Nature's Swiftness+Healing Touch in a macro.

That's an extra step over VuhDo. For example, same situation, All I need to do is move my mouse over frame and cast. VuhDo has a feature to stop casting the moment I hit another spell key (my macro bind). You see I don't need to "verify" anything.

To target someone manually means a slight delay over not having to manually 'click' the frame and where speed is a concern it's slower.

Now if one is using mouse-over macros it's just like VuhDo and this argument is null & void. But if you don't use macros you're slower and that's a fact.


Well I agree with you here somewhat but personally I found such situations varied wildly from boss to boss . And the situation could be so different each time around or similar yet with different consequences.

Overall yeah a macro is one of the best and easiest ways to deal with such a situation. Addons or no addons. Outside of this I really found it depends on what is going on. Because personally I seen people die within my FOL cast. You can finish the spell, be ready afterwards immediately with no time lost. You can use the cast time to not only be ready BUT also be ready to hit the spell as you cancel it before it is finished.

Or the very tiny delay if you cancel immediately. Which then opens a whole can of worms of questions. In this regard and in some cases I do agree depending on what you're doing as well as how you react the delay can matter. A little or significantly. Still on what delay ends up mattering is always the question though.And what I like is with every healer the options can be the same, be similar or differ wildly.

I like your posts. Very good thoughts

=).
Edited by Marathel on 6/9/2013 5:19 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
If you're slow it's slow. If you're fast and do it within the GCD it's the same thing. Other times it doesn't matter. Simply because you're bound by the cast time. If you want to cancel it, do another spell, move or the like you're simply putting the old rules back in place then more questions pop up which can or cannot matter.

Also Tiriel for most spells it's quite possible even if it requires great muscle memory, fast reflexes and very good awareness.

Now spells like rejuv is far, far harder because the GCD is less than a second but still possible if one wants to go that route. Honestly though if I was telling all of this to a beginner I would recommend they get an add on. I play this way simply because it's been a very long time and I didn't have anyone to help me or encourage to try different things.


Mm. I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you. Every time I have had someone say something similar to me, we've run into a boss where they simply could not keep up. I'm not going to say it's not working for you, but I will say with reasonable certainty that it will not work for the vast majority of players.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
that it will not work for the vast majority of players.


Yeah this I agree 100 percent.

It works for me because I been doing it since T11. I beaten my co healers many times throughout heroic fights, normals, I ranked here and there and so forth. They always said I would be a million times better if I switched but still haven't done it.

If I was a newcomer I would be hopelessly behind and that I would stress repeatedly. If I had someone help me back in Firelands I probably would be using an add on today for healing.
Edited by Marathel on 6/9/2013 5:55 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
5860
06/09/2013 04:08 AMPosted by Trollmendous
They have to a:stop casting >b:physically click target>c:cast.

Why can't you target the player during step a? Your brain has already decided that it needs to cancel and cast a different heal. You're also discounting mouse movement, which takes time. You also aren't counting the gcd wait. Different classes are different but the only spells I would be casting that I could interrupt are PoH (60% of the cast time is during the gcd) and Penance (2 ticks during gcd).

Mouseover macros are easier. They're what I use. But it is well within the realm of possibility for someone to be not-bad enough at the game to click targets and play well. If that's how someone prefers to play they can. Pretending it's impossible is dumb.
Edited by Evry on 6/9/2013 6:11 PM PDT
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100 Pandaren Monk
11015
My bro can heal without healing addon very well but still need DBM. The default UI still viable to heal effectively. I use vuhdo to heal.

Heal in LFR is a joke. No addon is needed to heal in LFR.

However, in normal / heroic raid, healing addon really help healers a lot.
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100 Troll Druid
11955
06/09/2013 06:10 PMPosted by Evry
Why can't you target the player during step a?


I'm not sure if I explained myself correctly. Let me try again.

I'm a Paladin and I'm casting Holy Radiance when some unexpected major damage occurs that requires me to use LOH. It's critical to get this spell off asap because other raid/Boss melee damage will certainly kill this person.

My reaction time is crucial here. Let's say I take your suggestion and at that moment move to target (click the healing target frame) while interrupting my spell cast. What exactly is the difference? Nothing really as I still have to use more time performing certain actions before casting LOH -

Cancel my spell by manually moving my toon
Move my mouse to the healing square
Click on the frame
Cast spell

Now we can argue that moving one's mouse and clicking the frame can be performed in one action. But the difference is a slight delay over the guy who doesn't need to click on the frame. See the difference? Any extra action performed by you costs time regardless of how 'little'. In fact, we can even leave out the GCD in this example but it will still show what's quicker when quickness is paramount.

So the question is - what's faster? This is -

I am casting Holy Radiance and I see I need to use LOH. I move my mouse over the target's healing frame and press a button. In this scenario I didn't need to -

Stop casting by performing anything 'extra' like moving my character.
I didn't need to physically click a frame prior to my casting the spell.
Also, my healing add-on automatically cancelled my current spell cast when I hit my Macro which also doesn't require me to target the player to cast my spell upon him.

If we make it simple and say the difference is between only clicking a frame and not. in these types of situations reaction time and application time are clearly in the favor of not having to perform another action and that's all I'm saying.
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100 Troll Druid
11955
And I want to be clear that people who use the default frames aren't including in the above explanation if they're using mouse-over macros. I'm only referencing those people who don't think mouse-overs have an advantage so don't use them.

I've debated with people who regard macros in the same light as add-ons.

Add-ons are a tool, they don't necessarily make a mediocre healer better but can make an exceptional healer more aware and in certain circumstances a bit quicker on reaction and application.

The way I set my UI up is mainly for information displayed for me in a manner that my brain doesn't need to be searching for it. It's in my face and even during stressful encounters I don't loose sight of what I need to see.

I made a video of me doing my daily 5m heroic to show Vuhdo and some other aspects of helpful information displayed in the form of add-ons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0auk3JrcD2c
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90 Human Priest
5860
Let me try again.

I think you are trying to read too much into my post. My point is that any difference is so small as to not be a deciding factor, and certainly not a major "detriment to your raid."

The situation you so painstakingly describe is very rare. It requires that you be casting a Spell longer than the GCD at a time when unexpected spike damage could occur and it requires the damage to happen after the gcd but before the cast finishes.

In such a scenario, the time it takes the healer to assess and react is a greater determining factor than a sub-100ms delay.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
If we make it simple and say the difference is between only clicking a frame and not. in these types of situations reaction time and application time are clearly in the favor of not having to perform another action and that's all I'm saying.


What delays end up mattering really depends on what is going on and most of the time here we're talking 2 seconds or less. Sometimes even less than a second.

In your scenarios it's on best terms about a second delay either way. What you said clearly shines though when one has to do a combo move like NS plus HT for example the delay in clicking jumps from 1 second on average(this is if you're really fast. If you're slow it's terrible) to roughly 2-3 seconds. While with a mouseover macro or macro in general it would stay at 1 second.

With cast time it's about the same. With instant spells it depends, with combo spells the difference is very noticeable. In that situation I would tell people just get a macro for it or in many cases just adjust or yell at your raid member. Pre planning eliminates a ridiculous amount of potential problems and it provides a very high amount of cushioning in many, many situations. But all I said applies or it doesn't even matter depending on the situation.

Most attacks that do not one shot fall within the "second tick you're dead or the within 2-4 ticks you're dead". This is not taking into account boss swing timers, what you're standing on and what it is and how it's killing you.
Edited by Marathel on 6/10/2013 1:30 AM PDT
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100 Troll Druid
11955
And certainly people are able to heal raids even without them but as we all know, time, regardless of how little, is relevant in a time limited encounter.

Obviously other factors matter such as one's latency and frame rate etc. Even if we say what I described above is 'rare', to which I'll agree, application of quicker spells help in other ways too. Having your heals applied first or for more effective healing matter, at least for some of us ;)>.

Actions take time and those actions standing alone might not look like much. But when you add up the total time to perform such an action then you might realize the disparity.

It's always advantageous to take the quickest route to your destination even if it's not on the default course...
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100 Night Elf Druid
19640
I do not use any add-on personally. No healer ones, not even DBM. I managed to get 5/13H so far this tier.

But mouse over macro for me is a MUST have. All my healers have mouse over macros. It makes healing so much faster and I have spells 1-12 bound to buttons on my mouse, so I can just hover a name and click a button.

I can see everything I need to see with default UI as far as debuffs and such goes.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
application of quicker spells help in other ways too


From what I seen if it's not an instant massive heal or say a combo macro it falls into two categories.

1)Is he going to live or die at the second it takes me for that instant to reach him?

2)Is he going to live or die before my cast finishes off ALONG the time it took me to reach that target? Meaning moving over to hit the mouseover or clicking.

The answer changes too if you're touching a dps, another healer or tank. And those rules always apply with every single healer in a general basis IF they're just going to heal.

Personally I seen 2 be applied far more in situations. 1 happens too and most of the time with tanks but it's not that bad in my opinion.
Edited by Marathel on 6/10/2013 1:49 AM PDT
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