Sad State of Resto Shaman: Mechanics Oriented

97 Pandaren Shaman
10755
Okay, just stop with this heroic vs normal nonsense. This is the Healing forums- not the Heroic only healing forums.

Seriously getting sick and tired of this attitude. Just because someone does normal- heck even LFR- their opinion does matter.


And I am also sick and tired of people who dismiss the concerns of heroic mode raiders just because they do not experience the same issues in normal. The reason why I specifically called Devdan out on his posts was because of the below.

06/18/2013 07:29 PMPosted by Mungoh
Tell me why Healing Rain is broken. Because it's stationary? Why aren't your dps making an effort to stand in it? Because other healer's group heals don't require them too? Good thing Healing Rain heals for a ton more and boosts their maximum HP. And it's getting a radius increase adding 4 more yards to the spell next patch giving players EVEN MORE room to move around in the circle and still get healed. But it's totally broken because players have to take a modicum of effort to accommodate it.


I find this statement to be particularly insulting because he assumes that everyone is able to do the same and stack in heroic mode encounters, and that anyone who doesn't do that is an idiot. Well, I dare you to try this in heroic 25 encounters with damaging ground effects that make stacking dangerous and sometimes downright idiotic. Want an example? Try heroic dark animus and ask everyone to stack in your healing rain and watch the whole area become a mass of anima fonts. What is even funnier is that he assumes a 4 yard increase is gonna fix a problem with people moving out of the rain. 4 yards is minuscule (melee range) and isn't gonna help when the whole area is filled with damaging ground effects.

Though I might disagree with some of what Tiberria has posted, i.e. we are not competitive on niche stacking fights (we are when geared for throughput, and which is why I have been very reluctant to post in the shaman HPS thread), I have to concur that there are issues that only heroic mode raiders experience. For e.g. since DPS timers are so tight in heroics, you are naturally gonna cut down healers. Who gets cut first? Well. the healer whose toolkit does not cater to the mechanics of course, which is reflected in the HPS meters. In this sort of scenario, poor HPS is a symptom of the issue plaguing shaman, which is a lacking toolkit. This is what I have been arguing in my posts, which seem to have been glossed over by the general community and the devs alike.

All we are asking for are a change in mechanics to help with spread and mobile healing, not band aids that require us to gimp our stacked healing (which fyi, is already matched by other classes), just to make our spread healing "slightly" less bad. These issues crop up much more often in heroics (hate to repeat, but what devdan has posted is a prime example of the difference between normal and heroic modes). To see our efforts to raise more awareness of these issues shot down by 1) people who do not play shaman, 2) people who have a vendetta against certain posters, and 3) people who don't see this happening in normal modes, is frustrating to say the least.

In essence, if you don't want to be called out on your lack of heroic mode raiding experience or your lack of experience playing a shaman, then stop dismissing our concerns. Otherwise, I will call you by what you are: a hypocrite.

EDIT: to emphasize that I'm speaking for 25m
Edited by Fewì on 6/19/2013 3:49 AM PDT
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90 Human Monk
7160
Blizzard has already stated their intentions for resto shamans.
With this in mind, they will never respond to you when you constantly compare resto shamans to other healers when they don't have the same design philosophy-- not is posting Raid Logs going to help either.
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97 Pandaren Shaman
10755
Blizzard has already stated their intentions for resto shamans.
With this in mind, they will never respond to you when you constantly compare resto shamans to other healers when they don't have the same design philosophy-- not is posting Raid Logs going to help either.


And this is what we are arguing about, that the design philosophy for shaman is archaic and needs to go. You don't see mistweavers or holy pallies having much issues with stacked and spread healing do you? Why are we the only healers now with a niche in stacked healing? Even druids, who are traditionally weak at burst healing, have gotten wild mushrooms and genesis next patch to help with that. Shaman? A few bandaids, that seem like an afterthought I might add, tacked onto the patch notes that require us to gimp our niche just for a chance to be slightly less bad in spread healing. For example, are druids taxed on their HOTS with the buff to wild mushrooms? Are mistweavers taxed on using uplife/renewing mist for the ability to use SCK in stacked situations?
Edited by Fewì on 6/19/2013 12:56 AM PDT
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100 Orc Shaman
23695
Heroic progression is where PvE class balance really matters. Nobody is going to not take you because your class is underpowered to normal modes, at least not if you have any idea what you are doing.

When you have 2 equally skilled players with similar gear you will take the class that is better. That is why shamans are being left behind, not because we can't heal the content but because other classes can do a better job of healing it and thus making progression faster.
Edited by Saracens on 6/19/2013 1:41 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
06/19/2013 12:42 AMPosted by Fewì
Well, I dare you to try this in heroic mode encounters with damaging ground effects that make stacking dangerous and sometimes downright idiotic.

You mean in 25m only, not "heroic mode encounters". Because your group can absolutely cater to Healing Rain in 10m.

06/19/2013 12:42 AMPosted by Fewì
Want an example? Try heroic dark animus and ask everyone to stack in your healing rain and watch the whole area become a mass of anima fonts.

Yeah... That's fair. Pick the one fight that shamans have the least representation on- for obvious reasons. =\
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97 Pandaren Shaman
10755
You mean in 25m only, not "heroic mode encounters". Because your group can absolutely cater to Healing Rain in 10m.


Thought I was being obvious that I was referring to 25m. Can't speak for 10m, perhaps other people are better qualified to do that. Anyway, have edited my posting to show I was referring to 25s.


Yeah... That's fair. Pick the one fight that shamans have the least representation on- for obvious reasons. =\


And that begs the question, why should shaman be the only healer having obvious problems with certain heroic fights? In any case, you could also replace the above example with heroic tortos (falling rocks, whirl turtles), heroic Jin'rokh (ball lightning), heroic horridon (freezing orbs and lightning totems) and the list goes on.
Edited by Fewì on 6/19/2013 3:48 AM PDT
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100 Troll Shaman
15220
06/18/2013 09:13 PMPosted by Jujubiju
I have a silly issue with SLT- it drops behind me on my left side. So you have to get the positioning just right. If people are too lazy to stack when they are supposed to (hunters have no excuse not to stand on the bosses butt these days- no minimum range), it's on them.


yes! They still use the totem placements so you sometimes have to spin your booty to get it positioned right. But well, I use projection so I can correct its behavior. I did submit a suggestion using the in game suggestion box for a glyph that changes that, as totems aren't just stat sticks anymore.

---

06/19/2013 12:42 AMPosted by Fewì
What is even funnier is that he assumes a 4 yard increase is gonna fix a problem with people moving out of the rain. 4 yards is minuscule (melee range) and isn't gonna help when the whole area is filled with damaging ground effects.


My eye says that the reason they're doing this is because of the current raid design. You have to be perfect on Durumu, Ji-Kun, Iron Qon to be able to keep your rain on tanks on one side and melee on the other. So that extra 4 yards will help make sure you get everyone and keep them in their hit boxes.

Does it help with heroic fights with heavy movement like Primordius or Dark Animus? No not really. But in those god awful round rooms it will make a difference. And yes, it's not an issue of people standing in it or moving out of it. It's more quality of life for the raid design.

---

And this is what we are arguing about, that the design philosophy for shaman is archaic and needs to go. You don't see mistweavers or holy pallies having much issues with stacked and spread healing do you? Why are we the only healers now with a niche in stacked healing? Even druids, who are traditionally weak at burst healing, have gotten wild mushrooms and genesis next patch to help with that. Shaman? A few bandaids, that seem like an afterthought I might add, tacked onto the patch notes that require us to gimp our niche just for a chance to be slightly less bad in spread healing. For example, are druids taxed on their HOTS with the buff to wild mushrooms? Are mistweavers taxed on using uplife/renewing mist for the ability to use SCK in stacked situations?


Yeah, they really did a lot to help spread healing... Wild Growth 30 yard range, the efflorescene effect doesn't require people standing in it, Atonement 40 yard range and less likely to hit pets, taking out the directional requirement of Light of Dawn and making that a 30 yard range... I guess they felt that Shamans wouldn't have an issue. But they probably had the same thoughts that I hear from Wrath players about Chain Lightning spam. So maybe they overcompensated or something. At least now they realize they put their foot in their mouth with the "shamans are stack healers" and have understood that spread healing for us needs to be addressed.

But yeah, there's definitely some band aids and we're looking for something that doesn't scab.
Edited by Shaylana on 6/19/2013 2:28 AM PDT
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http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=2965

It's the best article on it.

Alright, thank you.

06/18/2013 09:13 PMPosted by Jujubiju
I just double checked before logging off, but the second it hit the ground I got my first tick.

It's pretty quick, at least I haven't noticed a gap. Riptide does the initial heal, and then it will start ticking so there's a delay.

Neither have I; it was something I was curious about. Thank you both for being helpful. :)
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100 Goblin Shaman
8740
You are delusional if you think the issues that affect Shaman in heroics are as prevalent in easier difficulties. It's little coincidence that most of the concern about the Shaman model is coming from those with significant heroic experience and most of the people arguing against it have no real heroic experience. Have you ever thought that the only reason you think the class is fine is because you haven't experienced the level of content where it becomes an issue?


And you, sir/ma'am, are delusional to think they don't. Comments like this make me not even want to take you close to seriously anymore. And I have seen a number of heroic raiders dispute some of your arguments. Just because they don't agree with you, doesn't make their point less informative.

Tib and Fewi-look- I understand you guys are frustrated- I think we all get that here. Do you really not think that normal resto shaman raiders feel the same way when it comes to certain limitations? I remember FL, I remember how frustrating things could get there- even on normal mode. Not everyone does heroic mode. Not everyone cares about heroic mode. A majority of the player base doesn't do heroic mode nor will ever step into one until maybe next expac when the content is irrelevant.

That doesn't make anything people are saying irrelevant. Have I ever once in the last month stated everything was honky dorey with resto shaman as far as mechanics go? I have stated that HPS doesn't matter if people managed to survive the fight, but I have never once said "Our mechanics are fine."

Normals matter more than you realize- a lot more people do normal mode raiding than they do heroic. No we shouldn't dismiss the claims of heroic mode people, but at the same time all input is valued just the same in this thread because it isn't a "Heroic raider only problem" thread.

And if you bothered to look, the OP is talking about shaman mechanics in general. Want to play the "Heroics only matter" game? Go do that in your own thread.

This is a thread about shaman mechanics. Stay on topic.

(Folks, I apologize- I just get so tired of people trying to turn basic mechanics issues into a "If you don't do heroics, your opinions don't matter" thread.)

Nobody is going to not take you because your class is underpowered to normal modes, at least not if you have any idea what you are doing.


Actually hun, I concur. I've actually have seen people refuse to take XX class/spec to a normal mode because they were told XX class/spec wasn't good from someone else. Heck during LK- when my hunter was my main- I'd have other hunters complain about the raid leader taking me because I played SV instead of MM (then I'd manage to outdps that person on every fight).
Edited by Jujubiju on 6/19/2013 8:46 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
And that begs the question, why should shaman be the only healer having obvious problems with certain heroic fights? In any case, you could also replace the above example with heroic tortos (falling rocks, whirl turtles), heroic Jin'rokh (ball lightning), heroic horridon (freezing orbs and lightning totems) and the list goes on.

Shamans aren't the only healer having obvious problems. Last I checked, druids were right down there with shamans on representation for Animus. Before changes headed our way, we were one of the lower represented healers, too.

I can't argue about the other fights since you're talking about 25m, and I raid 10m. Our shaman does just fine in 10m, the only fight we struggled with was h consorts because he didn't have his 2pc or 4pc, idk. Think it was 4pc. But even then, we actually made a strat that revolved around healing rain. Then he was just fine.

I'm still curious, are these issues everyone's talking about AFTER testing on the PTR?
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97 Pandaren Shaman
10755
Shamans aren't the only healer having obvious problems. Last I checked, druids were right down there with shamans on representation for Animus. Before changes headed our way, we were one of the lower represented healers, too.


Even though representation was low, you must admit that druids had a much better toolkit to deal with dark animus mechanics and wouldn't gimp the raid as much as bringing in a resto shaman would, even prior to 5.3. With the changes to tranq and wild mushrooms now, druids are quickly becoming a hot commodity, both in 10s and 25s, and this is not even talking about the addition of genesis. This is also why alot of shaman (including me) are getting irritated with blizzard.

Despite so many good posts about the inadequacies of our toolkit, all we get are bandaids upon bandaids. Worse yet, these bandaids have conditions attached to them ("Oh you want to do more spread and mobile healing? You can! But you can forget about stack healing properly then!"). Which isn't so bad until you look at the other 5 healing classes and wonder why they don't have to make all these choices in order to heal properly. Its also not as if our stacked healing is head and shoulders above these classes (mistweavers/paladins can match our sustained stacked output. Druids and holy priests can exceed our burst).

I can't argue about the other fights since you're talking about 25m, and I raid 10m. Our shaman does just fine in 10m, the only fight we struggled with was h consorts because he didn't have his 2pc or 4pc, idk. Think it was 4pc. But even then, we actually made a strat that revolved around healing rain. Then he was just fine.


I can tell you that heroic twin consorts (25) is a fight that favor shaman, especially in phase 2 where there is constant AOE damage (suits healing rain), with periods of intense stacked healing (nuclear inferno). I'm not surprised that your shaman wouldn't have any problems with that once healing rain was incorporated into your strategy.

I'm still curious, are these issues everyone's talking about AFTER testing on the PTR?


No, these problems are the ones that are facing shaman now with their current toolkit. I don't think testing on the PTR will somehow diminish or invalidate our problems, since the changes are easily validated by theory crafting.

Edited to add my thoughts on the bandaids: riptide isn't used for the HOT so the glyph still does jack!@#$, while the chain heal glyph will give chain heal an equivalent "cast time" of 4 secs at my current haste levels, which effectively neuters our stacked healing in 25s. As for the 4 yard increase to HR, it doesn't do much since it will still only cover either the melee or ranged group, and if there are ground targeted effects/kiting, an extra 4 yards isn't miraculously going to make everyone want to stack in it anyway.
Edited by Fewì on 6/19/2013 10:15 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990


I'm still curious, are these issues everyone's talking about AFTER testing on the PTR?


Shaman haven't recieved any noteworthy changes on the PTR to address their spread healing yet. That 4 yrd range increase on HR and CH Glyph having a 2 sec CD instead of 4 is everything so far. At the very least, Shaman should have the Totemic Projection change coming (though I'm hoping for more).

Then, of course, raid testing isn't open yet at all. Blizzard mentioned another PTR patch or two beforehand.
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97 Pandaren Shaman
10755
That doesn't make anything people are saying irrelevant. Have I ever once in the last month stated everything was honky dorey with resto shaman as far as mechanics go? I have stated that HPS doesn't matter if people managed to survive the fight, but I have never once said "Our mechanics are fine."

Normals matter more than you realize- a lot more people do normal mode raiding than they do heroic. No we shouldn't dismiss the claims of heroic mode people, but at the same time all input is valued just the same in this thread because it isn't a "Heroic raider only problem" thread.


Just to clarify, I have never used the lack of heroic mode experience to bludgeon people into saying that my ideas are right. In fact, I have no problems with you stating your views (though I may not agree with them), and I absolutely agree that HPS is not everything. However, what gets my goat are people who, after we have clearly explained what is wrong with our current toolkit, come in and dismiss all our concerns, chalking them down to a L2P issue because they have not done heroic modes at all. This is what I get frustrated with.
Edited by Fewì on 6/19/2013 10:08 AM PDT
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100 Goblin Shaman
8740
Just to clarify, I have never used the lack of heroic mode experience to bludgeon people into saying that my ideas are right. In fact, I have no problems with you stating your views, and I agree that HPS is not everything. However, what gets my goat are people who have not done heroic fights, who presume to tell us that we need to L2P. Then I will come down on you, and hard.


Oh trust me- I completely understand that. And I don't mean to come off that way. It's just when someone complains when they've stated they're basically the mana bot of the raid (until recently, Tib was sitting at 20K spirit) and can't feel like they are competing HPS wise is when it starts sounding that way.

To quote Marty McFly Sr: "I try to avoid confrontation when I can."
Edited by Jujubiju on 6/19/2013 10:11 AM PDT
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For a heroic mode/hardcore raider:
If your worried about being sat for progression, its really not that hard to reroll.

All of the classes are stupidly easy; leveling is a joke; and gearing is hilariously easy now.

Outlining the points of a class issue is great, but defensively arguing behind a personal vendetta or baseless math on the wow forums really doesn't help your raid team or your raid position.

Shamans will never get better than other healing classes. They will have their niche fights, but other than that, no chance.
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97 Pandaren Shaman
10755
For a heroic mode/hardcore raider:
If your worried about being sat for progression, its really not that hard to reroll.

All of the classes are stupidly easy; leveling is a joke; and gearing is hilariously easy now.

Outlining the points of a class issue is great, but defensively arguing behind a personal vendetta or baseless math on the wow forums really doesn't help your raid team or your raid position.

Shamans will never get better than other healing classes. They will have their niche fights, but other than that, no chance.


That's great and all, but what about those of us who genuinely love our shaman? And how about the pre-requisites of getting ready for heroic raiding (i.e. black prince rep farming, legendary questline, getting your gear up to snuff and hoping that your raid leader will choose you over a million other good players, etc)? Those are potentially huge barriers this expansion.
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06/19/2013 10:19 AMPosted by Fewì
That's great and all, but what about those of us who genuinely love our shaman?


Find a guild that will take your shaman and do your best. It might require a cut in progression to toon swap, but I was in the same boat.

And how about the pre-requisites of getting ready for heroic raiding (i.e. black prince rep farming, legendary questline, getting your gear up to snuff and hoping that your raid leader will choose you over a million other good players, etc)? Those are potentially huge barriers this expansion.


Finding a guild is extremely easy. If you can't find something in the top 100 with proper experience on another character, I don't know what to tell you.

There are many many shamans being brought to heroic kills, and not hindering progress. Even Method brought a resto shaman to their kills, and they've been notorious for hating shaman.

They have a purpose, even in progression.

If your guild wont take your shaman, maybe thats not the right guild for you.

If they will, then maybe you're lucky. Shamans do not hinder progression; Skill, group makeup, and time hinders progression.

EDIT: as far as redoing legendary questline, there will obviously be time to catch up before next tier, plus they are speeding up legendary questing.
Edited by Eein on 6/19/2013 10:31 AM PDT
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22 Gnome Warrior
80
06/19/2013 12:42 AMPosted by Fewì
Try heroic dark animus and ask everyone to stack in your healing rain


Of course HR is not going to be optimally effective in all encounters. But you can place HR so people move through it and get off some very decent group healing.

25H guilds completing this encounter will have resto shaman maybe 3% to 4% lower on total healing than other classes. For example, a Disc priest may account for 17%-19% of the total healing while a Resto shaman will weigh in at about 14%-16%.

Are you saying that is totally unacceptable? I would think developers would be happy with that type of spread given the encounter.

Proposed changes to glyphed RT I think are a good start at closing the gap a bit on spread healing issues.
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100 Draenei Shaman
13215
Shamans aren't the only healer having obvious problems. Last I checked, druids were right down there with shamans on representation for Animus. Before changes headed our way, we were one of the lower represented healers, too.

I can't argue about the other fights since you're talking about 25m, and I raid 10m. Our shaman does just fine in 10m, the only fight we struggled with was h consorts because he didn't have his 2pc or 4pc, idk. Think it was 4pc. But even then, we actually made a strat that revolved around healing rain. Then he was just fine.

I'm still curious, are these issues everyone's talking about AFTER testing on the PTR?


We should make a thread called, "Sensations is doing fine, we design our raid strategies around him" and Fleurs can hang out all day and post about how Sensations is good because literally every single post you make is this. I mean no offense to you, but its getting repetitious.

It is ridiculous to think that every raid group can and will design and execute every boss fight in 10m around healing rain. It just wont happen. There are fights that can be, but even for normal average raiders, they are going to have a hard time getting spacing requirements 3yards apart stacked in healing rain on a boss fight i.e. primordius. Like with any healer it should be up to them to make wise decisions about the placement and timing of their abilities.

I think the purpose of the thread is not so much "How can we design fights around our healing rain so our shaman can maximize the output" as much as its "Why do we have to design fights around our healing rain to maximize the shamans output"

I think that blizzard is heading in the right direction with the changes to spread healing, I also know that a lot of shaman who complain about the lack of spread healing refuse to use spells such as chain heal because they read somewhere in a forum post that chain heal was bad. For the same reason that they are still stacking unnecessary amounts of spirit because they saw it in a forum post and thought, "oh this is the only thing that I am good for so I must stack spirit because this top shaman does"

Do what you enjoy, have fun with what you play, Try to learn and improve instead of just taking a backseat and assuming shaman are just bad. If you don't enjoy it still, retry at something else. If you do enjoy it, just be patient, changes are coming.
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