Sad State of Resto Shaman: Mechanics Oriented

06/19/2013 10:38 AMPosted by Naxe
It is ridiculous to think that every raid group can and will design and execute every boss fight in 10m around healing rain.


Then they shouldn't complain about a shamans toolkit when they aren't using it.
There is plenty of opportunities to use it on every single fight ever.

06/19/2013 10:38 AMPosted by Naxe
"How can we design fights around our healing rain so our shaman can maximize the output" as much as its "Why do we have to design fights around our healing rain to maximize the shamans output"


No. Its: How do we cater to our healing comp -or- Our DPS are dying to non-avoidable mechanics; How do we increase overall HPS?

Shamans are included in that because they are in fact a healer. A good raid lead, or strat designer will consider the shaman if they are one of the healers. A bad one will not realize how good healing rain is for basically no effort. You just gotta stand in it. It's not like you have to click it.

Do what you enjoy, have fun with what you play, Try to learn and improve instead of just taking a backseat and assuming shaman are just bad. If you don't enjoy it still, retry at something else


Hold me. <3
Edited by Eein on 6/19/2013 10:45 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
9210
Well here's some data on Heroic DA 25 http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Dark_Animus/25H/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

If you scroll down you'll see Shamans are still well represented despite their low output.
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100 Draenei Shaman
13215
I should have clarified. I absolutely think if a strategy can be designed in 10m where having your group stacked for healing rain is viable then it 100% should be implimented. What I mean is that it will not be effective to try and impliment this in EVERY fight as long as it is not detrimental to the group or unnecessary.

There will be fights where Shaman have to learn use other tools to be efficent and useful instead of trying to maximzie hps through healing rain.
Edited by Naxe on 6/19/2013 11:00 AM PDT
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22 Gnome Warrior
80
06/19/2013 10:38 AMPosted by Naxe
Why do we have to design fights around our healing rain to maximize the shamans output"


If you are doing heroic content, your raid leader SHOULD be designing strats around specs, their abilities and how they synergize with other classes.

There isn't any current H mode content that cannot be effectively done with a resto shaman as one of the healers.

I would like to see some additional spread healing options and it looks like we are getting some tweaks.
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90 Troll Shaman
9415
If you scroll down you'll see Shamans are still well represented despite their low output.


Of course they are still well represented. Most other healers at that level of progression(11/13 heroic or higher) have their legendary metas and cloaks and have cut their spirit down to a range of 7-10k. I've even seen monks who have gone full crit stacking and have their spirit down to about 6k. Those healers, who constantly rank, are now utterly dependent on mana tide to make sure they don't oom by the end of the fight. I had a disc priest from a world top 100 guild say that he preferred having 2 resto shammies in his raid because it was more mana for him, and they couldn't snipe his heals, meaning he had a better chance of ranking.

It sucks to always be the sidekick and never the star.
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100 Draenei Shaman
13215
06/19/2013 11:05 AMPosted by Prattle
Why do we have to design fights around our healing rain to maximize the shamans output"


If you are doing heroic content, your raid leader SHOULD be designing strats around specs, their abilities and how they synergize with other classes.

There isn't any current H mode content that cannot be effectively done with a resto shaman as one of the healers.

I would like to see some additional spread healing options and it looks like we are getting some tweaks.


You misunderstand the difference between maximizing a shamans output and effective healing. Sure you can stack in healing rain and make the shaman look good on the meters, is it necessary to to every chance you can? No not at all.

And you're absolutely right, Resto Shaman have a place on every Heroic Fight this tier. They do not have a place on every fight this tier if all they do is spam an unleashed healing rain every 13 seconds.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
So I'll go ahead and skip over the "Shaman are fine/No they're not" back and forth to get right to where I feel our mechanics are lacking.

SLT - It makes little sense. The range is smaller than Healing Rain. Which means if they can stand in our SLT, they can stand in our Healing Rain. If they can stand in our Healing Rain we're probably doing fine to keep them up anyway. The health redistribution thing is a cool idea but becomes meaningless when we're stacked anyway. Between my Healing Rain and Chain Heal, the people stacking with me are fine while those who are not stacked are dieing. It has needless limitations. I say, drop the dmg reduction and make the health redistribution raid wide. Then it would actualy save lives. As it is now, it's useless on all but the occasional stacked fight. Sure, I plop it on the melee just so i get something out of it, but frankly it's useless in 80% of ToT.

Chain Heal - It's too clunky to get a full powered Chain Heal off. You need to have a riptide on the target, then make sure you have max targets in range and in need of healing, then wait out the cast time, then hope that during all of this no one snipes any of the players in the chain. It's ridiculous to use unless you're stacked. Also, unless you're stacked you lose the main benefit of the spell; it's a smart heal. The beauty of a smart heal is that it selects the player most in need of healing over others. Chain Heal is hard pressed to even hit max targets unless you're stacked, so forget about benefitting from it's smart heal. It can't pick the target in most need of healing, it takes whoever it can hit. Again, if you have to be stacked for it to do it's job, then it's not helping our situation. Healing Rain does that job already.

Healing Rain - Puddle abilities were a cool addition to the game in Cata. Somehow though, Shaman have become completely balanced around our puddle while other classes are not nearly as dependent on their puddle as we are. Puddle heals are really an antiquated idea now though. Back when fights contained little movement, or at least more periodic movement, they would have been a godsend. But that isn't the game we're playing any more. This game is constant movement on most fights. That makes puddles kind of dumb. We're a spec balanced around an antiquated mechanic.

Mastery - My main problem with our mastery is that it usually does little to help our throughput while other healers have 100% or near 100% use of their mastery. You will respond with "but it helps you when you need it most". I will respond with "if our other mechanics allowed us to deliver healing in a timely manner to take advantage of that mastery, then yes I would agree. They do not, so I do not". You know as well as I do that the current raiding climate leaves health bars at 75% health + for most of the fight. Occasional raid nukes cause health to spike low for the entire raid. Healers respond to this with their raid CD, immediately launching the raid back over 75% health. Shaman have a raid CD too (we get to use a talent to get it. Yay!!). So essentially, the only spell we get a decent benefit out of our Mastery with is HTT.

The 5.4 PTR Glyph changes seem to be at least a partial admission by Blizzard that Shaman spread/movement healing is indeed a bit lacking. So I think it's safe to say the "Shaman are fine" crowd are not on the same page as Blizzard. Here's hoping they do indeed follow through with their plan to revamp the totem tier to help us with spread healing.
Edited by Luvbacon on 6/19/2013 11:43 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
9780
Whats the deal with tortos btw? Is it normal that I sometime feel borderline useless after a quake if HTT and SWG are on CD?
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100 Troll Shaman
15475
SLT - It makes little sense. The range is smaller than Healing Rain. Which means if they can stand in our SLT, they can stand in our Healing Rain. If they can stand in our Healing Rain we're probably doing fine to keep them up anyway. The health redistribution thing is a cool idea but becomes meaningless when we're stacked anyway. Between my Healing Rain and Chain Heal, the people stacking with me are fine while those who are not stacked are dieing. It has needless limitations. I say, drop the dmg reduction and make the health redistribution raid wide. Then it would actualy save lives. As it is now, it's useless on all but the occasional stacked fight. Sure, I plop it on the melee just so i get something out of it, but frankly it's useless in 80% of ToT.


Do you PvP at all? OMG - that would be so amazing in a Rated Battleground. You'd have so many people crying for nerfs if it was raid wide.

And well, I'm not sure you're using it enough then, because it's useful on Jin'rock static shocks, War God Jalak Pulses, Frostbite Stacking and Kazrajin melees on Council, Melee and Tanks on Tortos Bats, Megaera stacking, Ji-Kun quills on platform or localized Nest, Life Drain on Durumu or when the beams cross, Volatile Pathogen in Primordius, the soaking group on Iron Qon, Beast of Nightmares on Twins, and any static shock stacking on Lei Shen.

---

Whats the deal with tortos btw? Is it normal that I sometime feel borderline useless after a quake if HTT and SWG are on CD?


In 10 man, the glyph of chain heal is pretty much a required glyph for this fight. This tends to be one of the few fights I glyph Riptide. Heroic Tortos is actually easier, since we can get shells up nice and high and it gives us a large buffer.
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92 Night Elf Death Knight
3175
Not sure what you posted Juju, but in regard to this
And well, I'm not sure you're using it enough then, because it's useful on Jin'rock static shocks, War God Jalak Pulses, Frostbite Stacking and Kazrajin melees on Council, Melee and Tanks on Tortos Bats, Megaera stacking, Ji-Kun quills on platform or localized Nest, Life Drain on Durumu or when the beams cross, Volatile Pathogen in Primordius, the soaking group on Iron Qon, Beast of Nightmares on Twins, and any static shock stacking on Lei Shen.
I say that if everyone is stacked up that well Healing Rain does a better job as it's a direct heal not a redistribution effect. That SLT is only useful when HR or HTT/HST are paired with it is a sad use of abilities. Shaman spells have to use other spells just to be useful.

It sucks to always be the sidekick and never the star.
This is what I felt when I wrote the post. Yea it's cool and all, you're enabling the raid to do well, but if no one knows what you did to make everything great, and you can be pushed aside for another hero who can step up the heals then being a sidekick just doesn't seem cool. Perhaps if Shaman had their own sidekick role? Tank, Healer, DpS, and Support. That'd be kind of cool. Support specs for some classes since we now have a 4th spot via Druids needing it. Why not give Shamans this ability? Que times would get screwed over, but perhaps make Support Classes do some amazing things that change how the game is played. An immensely bad idea though this late into the expansion.
Edited by Garous on 6/19/2013 12:46 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555

Do you PvP at all? OMG - that would be so amazing in a Rated Battleground. You'd have so many people crying for nerfs if it was raid wide.


A fair point. No I do not PvP much at all. The point remains that it is not a great ability for PvE.


And well, I'm not sure you're using it enough then, because it's useful on Jin'rock static shocks, War God Jalak Pulses, Frostbite Stacking and Kazrajin melees on Council, Melee and Tanks on Tortos Bats, Megaera stacking, Ji-Kun quills on platform or localized Nest, Life Drain on Durumu or when the beams cross, Volatile Pathogen in Primordius, the soaking group on Iron Qon, Beast of Nightmares on Twins, and any static shock stacking on Lei Shen.


Classic. Someone disagrees with you? So question their skill.

Of course I use it in those situations, but only a few of the situations you mentioned see the bulk of your raid stacked.

You can stack most of your raid for;
Jin'rohk storms on normal only. Not heroic.
War God Pulses
Megaera Rampages
Static shock stacking

The rest of the situations you mentioned only include a partial stack. Which means the ability only has a fraction of it's effectiveness. Even by your account, the ability is severely lacking!
Edited by Luvbacon on 6/19/2013 12:49 PM PDT
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100 Goblin Shaman
8770
06/19/2013 12:45 PMPosted by Garous
Not sure what you posted Juju, but in regard to this


Forget now- was probably unimportant or didn't come out sounding they way I wanted it to.

I like to think of shaman healing in these terms:

"If you've got to get down, but can't find the elevator, you have to do it any way you can. Even if it's only with a shovel."

(From Drawing of the Three of the Dark Tower series).

Pretty much surmised: we're the red-headed step child of the healer classes. We're decent in some aspects but a master at nothing. We try to adjust according to what the conditions are.

But it's also getting to the point in which we can't always do that.

Now, as I said, I don't want another DS (which made shaman look good because 90% of the fights were stack fights). What I'd like to see is our issues fixed.
Edited by Jujubiju on 6/19/2013 1:07 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
@Jujubiju - Agree 100%. My Shaman has always been merely OK compared to my other healers but he has been fun enough to play that I have just suffered through it. This expansion is getting to the point where it's not quite worth it unless they fix our spread/movement healing.

P.S. Bonus points for the Dark Tower reference.
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Whats the deal with tortos btw? Is it normal that I sometime feel borderline useless after a quake if HTT and SWG are on CD?

In 10 man, the glyph of chain heal is pretty much a required glyph for this fight. This tends to be one of the few fights I glyph Riptide. Heroic Tortos is actually easier, since we can get shells up nice and high and it gives us a large buffer.


I dont glyph riptide.

HTT, HST+HS, SWG+Ascendance is more than enough for the fight if you're rotating healing cooldowns properly.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
06/19/2013 09:51 AMPosted by Fewì
Even though representation was low, you must admit that druids had a much better toolkit to deal with dark animus mechanics and wouldn't gimp the raid as much as bringing in a resto shaman would, even prior to 5.3. With the changes to tranq and wild mushrooms now, druids are quickly becoming a hot commodity, both in 10s and 25s, and this is not even talking about the addition of genesis. This is also why alot of shaman (including me) are getting irritated with blizzard.

Not sure I can agree... Shrooms are hardly going to be reliable on a fight like Animus since no one's standing in one place due to Font/Anima Ring/Matter Swaps. It worked on our kill 'cause we zerged it but no guilds do that, and 25m aren't even able... So, shrooms probably face a lot of issues in 25m for animus.

And animus is all bout dat burst heazlingz, of which druids do not have outside of shrooms :( But I really can't speak for 25m, maybe druids are actually quite awesome to have, so they act as a stabilizer while priests/paladins/monks burst people.

06/19/2013 10:38 AMPosted by Naxe
It is ridiculous to think that every raid group can and will design and execute every boss fight in 10m around healing rain. It just wont happen.

Yeah... Your raid lead must not know how to raid lead...
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100 Troll Shaman
15475
06/19/2013 12:48 PMPosted by Luvbacon
Classic. Someone disagrees with you? So question their skill.


Huh. I think you read more into that than what I meant. I just use it more than you do I guess, but perhaps your group doesn't need it. I just use it because, well, I guess I think it helps.

Of course I use it in those situations, but only a few of the situations you mentioned see the bulk of your raid stacked. You can stack most of your raid for;Jin'rohk storms on normal only. Not heroic.


Well, the static shock from the tanks still go out, so when your raid is stacked in the pool you can lessen the damage from that. So yeah, I don't use it during lightning storm.

War God PulsesMegaera RampagesStatic shock stackingThe rest of the situations you mentioned only include a partial stack. Which means the ability only has a fraction of it's effectiveness. Even by your account, the ability is severely lacking!


I think it's a perception thing. I think you believe it's lacking because it's not hitting enough people. I'll say that I don't mind using it if it only hits 3 people. I think it's designed to make healing effective (overhealing prevention with the equalization of health bars) and give the 10% damage reduction. I just think it's better than not using it or waiting for optimal circumstances for maximum efficacy.

06/19/2013 03:05 PMPosted by Fleurs
Not sure I can agree... Shrooms are hardly going to be reliable on a fight like Animus since no one's standing in one place due to Font/Anima Ring/Matter Swaps. It worked on our kill 'cause we zerged it but no guilds do that, and 25m aren't even able... So, shrooms probably face a lot of issues in 25m for animus.


Don't think we didn't try though... we did ;)
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90 Human Monk
7160
Blizzard has already stated their intentions for resto shamans.
With this in mind, they will never respond to you when you constantly compare resto shamans to other healers when they don't have the same design philosophy-- not is posting Raid Logs going to help either.


And this is what we are arguing about, that the design philosophy for shaman is archaic and needs to go. You don't see mistweavers or holy pallies having much issues with stacked and spread healing do you? Why are we the only healers now with a niche in stacked healing? Even druids, who are traditionally weak at burst healing, have gotten wild mushrooms and genesis next patch to help with that. Shaman? A few bandaids, that seem like an afterthought I might add, tacked onto the patch notes that require us to gimp our niche just for a chance to be slightly less bad in spread healing. For example, are druids taxed on their HOTS with the buff to wild mushrooms? Are mistweavers taxed on using uplife/renewing mist for the ability to use SCK in stacked situations?
I understand what you're saying and I also feel that this niche is unacceptable. However, how does constantly linking raid logs going to help? We are aware that shamans hps is balanced while other healing classes aren't, except the niche of stack healing is causing those numbers to be problematic.
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100 Orc Shaman
14920
Conductivity When you cast Healing Wave, Greater Healing Wave, Healing Surge, or Chain Heal, your Healing Rain's duration is increased by 1 sec. When you cast Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Earth Shock, or use Stormstrike, your Healing Rain's duration is increased by 1 sec. Shaman - LvL 75 Talent.


Is anybody able to play on the PTR right now and test if this allows you to have more than one Healing Rain up?
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90 Troll Shaman
9415
Even if you could, it would require giving up HTT to do so, thereby making our spread healing even worse. It's probably aimed mostly at DPS shammies, as there is also a change to how HTT is calculated. Rather than having it's healing affected by purification, they buffed it's spellpower co-efficient and removed it from purification. For resto shammies, nothing will really change with HTT, but Conductivity and HTT are now far more viable for DPS shammies.
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