Sad State of Resto Shaman: Mechanics Oriented

100 Worgen Druid
12220
I understand that there are more reasonable people in this thread, but the exact quote I was responding to was:

Druids have no right to expect even a minute of developer attention in 5.4 before 3+ year old Shaman issues are addressed, let alone expect the level of unwarranted buffs they were given.


And yes, I do apologize for centering my post somewhat on throughput. But again, that's exactly what the post I was responding to was doing. According to Tiberria, getting a couple increases to our spells is all that matters and the years of QoL omplaints that had not been addressed should magically go away.

All Druids got in 5.3 were a very rough set of buffs to a couple spells, while many of our mechanical issues remain. Take Mushrooms for instance, while having their output dramatically increased looks nice, the QoL issues (the cumbersome placement, moving etc..) that had received the most complaints were not tweaked. Now, leading into 5.4, that is finally happening after two teirs of feedback. Most of our changes are actually QoL, or balancing talent tiers so people use them. Very little has to do with being straight buffed, and in some cases we are actually getting reductions (mushrooms) in throughout.

Anyway, enough about Druids. This is about Shaman, and you 100% need some love. I have posted that here and other places, and I have tweeted about it to GC. I am on your guys side. It's just that the constant bitterness towards Druids from one of your more vocal people is getting obnoxious, with them actively posting in our threads now, in addition to here... just stop.
Edited by Fangthorn on 6/22/2013 6:45 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
I understand that there are more reasonable people in this thread, but the exact quote I was responding to was:

Druids have no right to expect even a minute of developer attention in 5.4 before 3+ year old Shaman issues are addressed, let alone expect the level of unwarranted buffs they were given.


And yes, I do apologize for centering my post somewhat on throughput. But again, that's exactly what the post I was responding to was doing. According to Tiberria, getting a couple increases to our spells is all that matters and the years of QoL omplaints that had not been addressed should magically go away.

All Druids got in 5.3 were a very rough set of buffs to a couple spells, while many of our mechanical issues remain. Take Mushrooms for instance, while having their output dramatically increased looks nice, the QoL issues (the cumbersome placement, moving etc..) that had received the most complaints were not tweaked. Now, leading into 5.4, that is finally happening after two teirs of feedback. Most of our changes are actually QoL, or balancing talent tiers so people use them. Very little has to do with being straight buffed, and in some cases we are actually getting reductions (mushrooms) in throughout.

Anyway, enough about Druids. This is about Shaman, and you 100% need some love. I have posted that here and other places, and I have tweeted about it to GC. I am on your guys side. It's just that the constant bitterness towards Druids from one of your more vocal people is getting obnoxious, with them actively posting in our threads now, in addition to here... just stop.


And, I went overboard in my reply to Juvenate. My frustration was mostly based on him trying to refute the argument that Nature's Swiftness as baseline should mean HTT should be baseline by suggesting that HTT is 30% of our output somehow (and if that turd actually looked at a single log he'd see that he was exaggerating by about 300%) and that we would need to be nerfed/rebalanced to get it baseline. That is a guy that actively cheers Shaman nerfs and ridiculous GC tweets dismissing Shaman on Twitter whenever they happen and then spends all day tweeting about how the 5.4 buffs are still not enough. My frustration was more directed at him than the Druid community.
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
5.4 is looking like an overall nerf to Druids anyway, if mushrooms stay as is. Savagely nerfed in almost every way from 5.3 (what's keeping us floating on a lot of fights - that and LOL25TRANQ).

Also, completely horrifying tier bonuses from hell. No sane Druid will even bother switching to T16 until they go swap all Heroic. Even then it's probably debatable. The only good thing about T16 is how the increased stamina will interact with Ysera's Gift (which will be 95% massive overheal on the Druid).
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90 Troll Shaman
9710
I'd beg to differ, the spell I'm hearing big things about right now is Genesis. Apparently it is providing huge burst healing atm in conjunction with tree form. If it goes live in it's current form(still a big if this early in PTR, I'll admit), druids are going to be a hot commodity in SoO.
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100 Worgen Druid
12220
Genesis is exciting, but I think many are commenting on shortsighted theory-crafting and have not really at how the spell will behave in most circumstances. It can never increase the amount of rejuvenations you cast over a given period, only decrease them. If damage is predictable, VERY bursty, and the players receiving it are also predictable, it will definitely be nice. But this is not always a common mechanic.

Genesis provides zero HPS in sustained damage, and will be hard to use and costly in spikey random damage. Even a moderate sustained burst situation like Magaera will provide only a minimal HPS increase, if any, and actually might actually decrease it since GCDs will be used in place of additional Rejuvs, WGs, or Swiftmend etc..

Some mechanics will definitely fit it (such as Interrupting jolt), and I see Genesis helping Druids be more flexible in these situations, but it is not going to be a large overall HPS increase to the class.
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90 Troll Shaman
9710
Yes, but druid were already at their strongest during steady sustained raid damage, as that was the situation most likely to allow their RJ's to to avoid overheal. Burst healing has been their Achilles heel for a long time, so adding this to their toolkit fixes a glaring weakness for them. And druid HPS has improved significantly since 5.3, according to raidbots.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

Either way, all shammies are asking for is the same treatment as druids, that someone at least try to find solutions to our problems. Right now, it just feels like no one is even listening.
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100 Dwarf Priest
8615
Genesis is exciting, but I think many are commenting on shortsighted theory-crafting and have not really at how the spell will behave in most circumstances. It can never increase the amount of rejuvenations you cast over a given period, only decrease them. If damage is predictable, VERY bursty, and the players receiving it are also predictable, it will definitely be nice. But this is not always a common mechanic.

Genesis provides zero HPS in sustained damage, and will be hard to use and costly in spikey random damage. Even a moderate sustained burst situation like Magaera will provide only a minimal HPS increase, if any, and actually might actually decrease it since GCDs will be used in place of additional Rejuvs, WGs, or Swiftmend etc..

Some mechanics will definitely fit it (such as Interrupting jolt), and I see Genesis helping Druids be more flexible in these situations, but it is not going to be a large overall HPS increase to the class.


Resto Druids are already fine at dealing with spread, sustained damage. They need help with burst AoE, which is exactly what Genesis and mushrooms are for.
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
You should realize that most of the improved HPS for Druids in 5.3 is from

1) LOLTRANQ in 25s.

2) Insano-Shrooms, which are significantly nerfed on the PTR. I'm still trying to understand how a spell that takes 3 GCDs to set-up has been make CLUNKIER by moving it to 1 GCD. But Blizzard has "special" talent.

I just want to see the savage nerfs that Disc still deserves and has yet to receive. Also, preemptive nerf on Mistweaver 4pc. Mana regen nerfs, hard ones, for Disc and Mistweavers as well. There's really no point to anything but Priests/MW (especially in 25s) come 5.4.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
06/22/2013 09:01 AMPosted by Fangthorn
Genesis provides zero HPS in sustained damage, and will be hard to use and costly in spikey random damage. Even a moderate sustained burst situation like Magaera will provide only a minimal HPS increase, if any, and actually might actually decrease it since GCDs will be used in place of additional Rejuvs, WGs, or Swiftmend etc..


HPS means Healing Per Second.

Genesis turns delayed healing into much more immediate healing. That's an HPS increase.

It doesn't seem very difficult to manage Genesis at all. Unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't even seem to have a cooldown. That gives the ability tremendous flexibility. You could perceivably even just use it on a single target.
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100 Night Elf Druid
12720
And, I went overboard in my reply to Juvenate. My frustration was mostly based on him trying to refute the argument that Nature's Swiftness as baseline should mean HTT should be baseline by suggesting that HTT is 30% of our output somehow (and if that turd actually looked at a single log he'd see that he was exaggerating by about 300%) and that we would need to be nerfed/rebalanced to get it baseline. That is a guy that actively cheers Shaman nerfs and ridiculous GC tweets dismissing Shaman on Twitter whenever they happen and then spends all day tweeting about how the 5.4 buffs are still not enough. My frustration was more directed at him than the Druid community.


I admit I may be overestimating HTT output. It appears that since CH and HR were buffed, HTT is now doing a lower % of overall healing compared to 5.1. My mistake.

I have done nothing but championed for Shaman mechanical changes ever since 5.2 started especially on Twitter. The only time I've ever been snarky is when people (like yourself) make claims strictly on the meters game. I know quite a few Shaman in Heroic 25 content and not one of them have claimed that they are holding their healing team back due to their output. The Shaman in my own guild does a great job and is a very skillful player.

I have suggested to Ghostcrawler via Twitter that Chain Heal should get the range buff from Glyph of Chaining baseline and allow Chain Heal to be cast while moving (similar to the Lightning Bolt change for Ele Shaman). I don't think any healer should be without the tools to heal on the move to a decent extent. Riptide and SWG are clearly not cutting it.

I have never said the 5.4 changes were not enough. We've literally been in the PTR cycle for a week. How could I make that type of conclusion? You may have me mistaken with someone else.

Your original post seemed a bit bitter which is why I originally responded. It came across like you were blaming other healing class changes for the reason Shaman haven't seen a buff/redesign. I don't respond to forum posts very often. It may have been best if I had just left it alone.

I won't reply to this thread anymore as to not steer it off-topic, but please do me a favor while you are here and don't resort to name-calling Tiberria.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930

I admit I may be overestimating HTT output. It appears that since CH and HR were buffed, HTT is now doing a lower % of overall healing compared to 5.1. My mistake.

I have done nothing but championed for Shaman mechanical changes ever since 5.2 started especially on Twitter. The only time I've ever been snarky is when people (like yourself) make claims strictly on the meters game. I know quite a few Shaman in Heroic 25 content and not one of them have claimed that they are holding their healing team back due to their output. The Shaman in my own guild does a great job and is a very skillful player.

Your original post seemed a bit bitter which is why I originally responded. It came across like you were blaming other healing class changes for the reason Shaman haven't seen a buff/redesign. I don't respond to forum posts very often. It may have been best if I had just left it alone.

I won't reply to this thread anymore as to not steer it off-topic, but please do me a favor while you are here and don't resort to name-calling Tiberria.


HTT was never doing more than an average of 10% of our output, maybe 15% on certain fights with high burst and very little sustained healing, but it was never close to 30%. Also, not once have I "claimed that I am holding my healing team back due to my output". I challenge you to find a post where I said that. I am talking about the output of the spec on an aggregate level (not my personal performance), and I do feel that the output is tuned too low, especially on stacked fights where we should be shining, not below average. I get that HPS isn't everything, and it's foolish to claim that - utility, burst, synergy comes into play. However, it is equally foolish for people to claim that it is completely irrelevant, doesn't matter and that logs, especially aggregate logs of thousands of different players mean nothing. I think it's also ridiculous to claim that any amount of utility or synergy is adequate to excuse 30% swings in aggregate throughput. I can see maybe 10%, but I think the people like yourself that seem to think it should be ignored are burying their heads in the sand and not understanding 50% of the issue.

Also, it's really rich of you to complain about name calling not 24 hours after you sent out a Tweet telling the world how much you *expletive* hate me. I guess sticks and stones really do break glass houses.
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100 Worgen Druid
12220
Genesis provides zero HPS in sustained damage, and will be hard to use and costly in spikey random damage. Even a moderate sustained burst situation like Magaera will provide only a minimal HPS increase, if any, and actually might actually decrease it since GCDs will be used in place of additional Rejuvs, WGs, or Swiftmend etc..


HPS means Healing Per Second.

Genesis turns delayed healing into much more immediate healing. That's an HPS increase.

It doesn't seem very difficult to manage Genesis at all. Unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't even seem to have a cooldown. That gives the ability tremendous flexibility. You could perceivably even just use it on a single target.


I realize what HPS stands for. :D But it is more commonly a reference to total HPS over an encounter, not over a small fixed period, more often "burst healing" is the term for that.

In regards to Genesis, using it on a full set of rejuvenations will clear the raid of them in about 4 seconds. This will cause a large spike in healing over that 4 second period, but then an equally significant drop in healing over the next 10-15 seconds as the Druid has to re-apply rejuvenations to the raid.

It is a trade off, and if you actually look at the "HPS" over a longer period, say even 20 seconds, instead of just that 4 seconds Genesis is active, you will see very little to no net gain in healing done. Well that is unless it is matched to a specific mechanic that fits it. In fact, if used incorrectly, Genesis will lower healing as it may just end up as overheal while also decreasing your sustained healing for the 10 seconds following it
Edited by Fangthorn on 6/22/2013 1:21 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
9210
It always makes me think of Kaels and how we're unfortunately balanced around our healing when stacked with Healing Rain. So we basically can use a HST and spam CH as well during this stack. Of course, we have to Riptide a new target or we just keep spamming CH through a Riptide target with 100% health, thus wasting the initial heal to preserve the 25% bonus. That wastes a global and effective healing if we riptide someone else. (Another mechanic that probably needs some tweaking.) We have to spam spells on top of Healing Rain if we're going to remain competitive.


Riptide's interaction with Chain Heal always struck me as a tank healing mechanic, so that CH could do a decent single target heal with some bonus cleave.

During raid wide damage it seems like more of a trade-off, less spread for a little more healing.

Edit: also if you're wasting the initial heal there is no net bonus
Edited by Rexoss on 6/22/2013 2:29 PM PDT
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100 Troll Shaman
14575
Riptide's interaction with Chain Heal always struck me as a tank healing mechanic, so that CH could do a decent single target heal with some bonus cleave.

During raid wide damage it seems like more of a trade-off, less spread for a little more healing.


That's a big problem with the current tier though - Tanks aren't standing near anyone typically except in a stacked situation. So CH on a tank is a Fail Chain most of the time. It's so much better to just GHW when you have Tidal Waves.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
06/22/2013 01:17 PMPosted by Fangthorn
.


Took the discussion to your class thread, although our argument is probably near its term.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12320
Fang, those Hots will be ticking regardless, and they are not really a loss at all unless you use them stupidly. Raid damage is not always constant, there will be slow periods and fast periods. Generally you will not get a super fast period that lasts for a long time. eg Genesis will see good use, and the 'slowdown' after it's used will likely coincide with a slower period of damage. Will this always happen? NO, this will not always happen and mileage will vary.

Moving on, if we can steer closer to Shaman Mechanics instead of other classes mechanics that'd be great. Comparing to other classes mechanics is fine, but general discussion of just another class is frowned upon please. Won't stop ya, as we are in the general healing forum and not the Shaman Class forum, but the Class forum knows already what's going on. They don't need to know they need a little help. They know it.

Further to task, could we propose a Shaman Help Manual? I know some of the better 25H raiders here have certain rotations they use and that 10N uses slightly different ones. If any applicable Shamans would like to share your average HpS and playstyle(what spells you use in your rotation/when to use them) I think it would go a long way to either boosting the lower performing Shaman and perhaps we can pick apart what each of us is doing and somehow pick up on maybe something the community as a individual has missed somehow, but might see as a whole. If you feel the need to protect your rotation that's fine. This is just an open invitation for those who feel it may help.

~I know theorycrafting and all that, but perhaps we can iron out something that was missed, however small just in case. Feel free though to carry on discussion around this though, all constructive input is welcome. :)
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100 Draenei Shaman
12230
I would advise people to look at the Shaman theorycrafting at elitistjerks. It is probably the overall best restoration shaman beginning guide I have ever seen and Therya does a great job of updating it constantly.

Here is the link:

http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t130574-resto_its_raining_heals_5_3_a/

I think it covers anything you could possibly have questions on, and Therya discusses in detail how to heal with a focus on shaman output.
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90 Troll Shaman
9710
I don't actually think there is much more to be posted here. There are a lot of solid suggestions and thoughts in this thread on what needs to be done to fix the spec. Continuing to post is really not going to accomplish much. Try posting your concerns in the PTR shaman thread.

I don't think Blizz is going to do anything to help us before the next xpac. The resto shammie in heroic raiding is going the way of the dodo bird.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12320
If that's the case then thank you everyone for posting here, please post again if you have any questions I'll still be monitoring the thread for a time, Thank you Satiri for the Elistist link for the uninformed. Hopefullyl Blizzard listens eventually.
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100 Troll Shaman
3370
I'd like to PvP as a healer, but resto is so broken across the board that I'd have to re-roll just to have any fun. Way too frustrating as is.

Blizzard has taken baby steps with the 5.4 patch notes so far, but we're in need of BIG changes. A lot of the class mechanics feel so outdated, really hope Blizz addresses these more thoroughly before the patch hits.
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