Sad State of Resto Shaman: Mechanics Oriented

86 Night Elf Druid
9430
I am not a shaman expert by any means, but I have read through a lot of shaman healing guides, and your comments on shamans dont really match up with anything those guides talk about. For shamans unlike most healers their are roughly three gearing styles which match up with 5 /10 man, 25 man and pvp content. the mastery is really useful in 5/10 man and pvp content in 25 man raid content the mastery is absolutely horrific. The talents you use really depend on both the fight your in and which content your running, All the healing talents have their use and advantage and may fit better with certain gearing styles as well. for example conductivity in 10 man combined with high crit and mastery and healing the tank can be absolutely awesome. By just healing the tank you can pretty much heal all of the melee taking aoe damage. Even though I dont think your commentary is correct, shamans may still be underpowered.

Priests when this expansion first came out were fairly underpowered hearlers. I wouldn't worry about it. Blizzard tends to overbuff when a class has been nerfed into the carpet. I still remember fire mages were aweful until the end of cataclysm and than they were overpowered for a while.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I am not a shaman expert by any means, but I have read through a lot of shaman healing guides, and your comments on shamans dont really match up with anything those guides talk about. For shamans unlike most healers their are roughly three gearing styles which match up with 5 /10 man, 25 man and pvp content. the mastery is really useful in 5/10 man and pvp content in 25 man raid content the mastery is absolutely horrific. The talents you use really depend on both the fight your in and which content your running, All the healing talents have their use and advantage and may fit better with certain gearing styles as well. for example conductivity in 10 man combined with high crit and mastery and healing the tank can be absolutely awesome. By just healing the tank you can pretty much heal all of the melee taking aoe damage. Even though I dont think your commentary is correct, shamans may still be underpowered.

Priests when this expansion first came out were fairly underpowered hearlers. I wouldn't worry about it. Blizzard tends to overbuff when a class has been nerfed into the carpet. I still remember fire mages were aweful until the end of cataclysm and than they were overpowered for a while.


Part of the problem here is that Resto Shaman have been consistently underpowered since the start of Cata, and they haven't changed much in that time. I don't agree with everything the OP is saying, but I understand where the concern is coming from.
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86 Night Elf Druid
9430
Part of the problem here is that Resto Shaman have been consistently underpowered since the start of Cata, and they haven't changed much in that time. I don't agree with everything the OP is saying, but I understand where the concern is coming from.


I have heard that from multiple shamans. Was that true in 25 man raiding? Because our shaman in our 10 man raid group was absolutely awesome at keeping the dps up through all of cataclysm?
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
11635
06/09/2013 05:15 AMPosted by Nahuul
You place your cursor at where you want Healing Rain placed before HR comes off CD. It allows for an almost 100% upkeep of HR.
That's true I withdraw my statement then, I feel that Shamans shouldn't be locked into watching cursor placement, because if you need to move periodically it can skew the targeting area and it'll go wonky and move upwards onto a nearby object in the air. I'll admit I may just be biased towards the Druid healing version, Swiftmend though.

Adun, I agree with you that when healing matters Shamans come out great currently as emergency healers. If your group is doing nothing but wiping and you're constantly dying, a Shaman in your group would be a huge benefit. However, given that players don't want half empty health bars Shaman Mastery underperforms when the target is mostly healed up. I'll reiterate that I'm personally not sure how to fix Shaman Mastery, and I did read a few of the other posts here about how to, and I'm not sure how I feel about them. I agree that possibly changing Shaman Mastery to work all the time instead of just when targets are low on health could be a good thing, but then you risk OPing Shamans as a Mastery stacked shaman would have super epic heals.

An idea I did have though was to use the idea of Earth Shield and incorporate it into Mastery. This version of Shaman Mastery would have a % Chance to place a single charge of Earth Shield on the target. These Mastery placed Earth Shields would not overwrite each other and could have a short duration, eg 15-30 seconds.

Another idea would be to make Shaman Mastery change their Purification passive. Perhaps as you gain more mastery the bonus health slowly increases upwards, or the raw % heal bonus goes up, this second bit though is liable to fall to a Mastery Stacked Shaman with super epic one hit full heal thing.

A final idea I had is that as Shaman Mastery increases, the CDs on totems would go down. Not by a huge margin, and perhaps instead of CD's going down, duration going up would be better, I don't know...

I just find it difficult to get a fix for Shaman Mastery that isn't a HoT like Holy Priest Mastery, a raw bump like Druid/Disc Mastery, or a flat shield from Pally Mastery.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
06/09/2013 02:01 PMPosted by Mealdeal
Part of the problem here is that Resto Shaman have been consistently underpowered since the start of Cata, and they haven't changed much in that time. I don't agree with everything the OP is saying, but I understand where the concern is coming from.


I have heard that from multiple shamans. Was that true in 25 man raiding? Because our shaman in our 10 man raid group was absolutely awesome at keeping the dps up through all of cataclysm?


You were better off bringing a mediocre Resto Druid to H Firelands 25 than bringing a Resto Shaman. I was able to pull very good numbers in my group, but we did two things: 1) severely underhealed continent because we had such completely piss poor DPS that we were hitting enrage timers and 2) we had some really bad healers in the group. Only about 4 of us were really "on the level" with each other skillwise, and the rest were kind of "eh." But even the "eh" Druid trial was able to pull equivalent, if not better, numbers than I could.

It was better in DS because...lol...Blizzard came up with a raid that specifically catered to every single strength a Shaman has, and exposed almost none of their weaknesses.
Edited by Tiriel on 6/9/2013 2:07 PM PDT
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86 Night Elf Druid
9430
Interesting. Our raid group never got to heroic content in firelands. All i can say is that I am quite happy about that. we would have gotten splattered. Most of our tanks were dks and dks were really struggling with that content. I do remember shamans got really good when DS came out and Pallies also became really overpowered as well.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
11635
Mealdeal, I'm unsure if you've read recent postings about Shamans, because they're somewhat backwards from what you describe,
06/09/2013 01:47 PMPosted by Mealdeal
For shamans unlike most healers their are roughly three gearing styles which match up with 5 /10 man, 25 man and pvp content. the mastery is really useful in 5/10 man and pvp content in 25 man raid content the mastery is absolutely horrific.

Mastery is currently better in 25 man because more damage = lower health targets = mastery kicks in harder. Also I've read a number of guides as well, and I'm not finding a consensus about how to prioritize stats that is consistent across them. I'm also confused by your statement, could you clarify your comment about PvP healing? I'm not sure if you meant it's on the good side or the bad side.

Also, your comment about Shamans eventually getting a huge buff I think is somewhat out of date. Shamans were underpowered all throughout Cata, pulling okay heals, but nothing to write home about. The purpose for this post is Because Shamans haven't stood at the top for a while now. They've either been at the bottom or lower to mid pack among the healing meters / charts.

I will admit though again here in case people have been skimming posts, I do not play an end game Shaman, and I am not super geared out at all. I have played on PTR for shamans to see their 90 talents, but do not have a 90 Shaman of my own.
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86 Night Elf Druid
9430
Mealdeal, I'm unsure if you've read recent postings about Shamans, because they're somewhat backwards from what you describe,


Sorry just got back into the game about 2 weeks ago. So yeah that info I posted might not be right. But I am bored and wanted something to do.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
06/09/2013 02:26 PMPosted by Mealdeal
Mealdeal, I'm unsure if you've read recent postings about Shamans, because they're somewhat backwards from what you describe,


Sorry just got back into the game about 2 weeks ago. So yeah that info I posted might not be right. But I am bored and wanted something to do.


Well...Shaman Mastery is really useful if you're underhealing content, or when your fellow healers have very little mana to work with. Thing is, we're already at the DS-level of mana regen, so we basically have like, no problems keeping up with ridiculous damage.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
I won't deny that LoD/EF is much better for spread healing than chain heal/HR, but I certainly wouldn't put it at the level of tranq/revival/DH.


LoD/EF both apply mastery bubbles, are useable throughout the fight with their only limiting factor being Holy Power. If you look at a decent Holy Pallies log versus a decent Resto Druids log for example, you will find that often LoD/EF surpass Tranq. But let's assume they don't surpass Tranq. When you factor in the mastery shield LoD/EF applied, there is no question they far surpass Tranq.
Edited by Luvbacon on 6/9/2013 4:13 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555

A unless they are doing heroic modes, a lot of the player base doesn't care what WoL says as far as numbers go.


Oh! So most players don't care that we're underperforming? Good to know. So by that logic, no healer buffs, ever, to any class were neccessary. Since most players don't care if a healer underperforms and since the boss wil still die. Right?

This argument is merely an attempt to ignore data. This is the primary dissenting argument for a Resto Shaman rebalance. "Ignore the data and stop whining!!"

Would someone use some kind of data to make their point? Show me on WoL how we are not underperforming. However you'd like to present that data. At least attempt to prove that Resto Shaman are fine using something other than personal anecdote.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8410
06/09/2013 04:12 PMPosted by Luvbacon
I won't deny that LoD/EF is much better for spread healing than chain heal/HR, but I certainly wouldn't put it at the level of tranq/revival/DH.


LoD/EF both apply mastery bubbles, are useable throughout the fight with their only limiting factor being Holy Power. If you look at a decent Holy Pallies log versus a decent Resto Druids log for example, you will find that often LoD/EF surpass Tranq. But let's assume they don't surpass Tranq. When you factor in the mastery shield LoD/EF applied, there is no question they far surpass Tranq.


Of course it's going to pass Tranq, Divine Hymn, Revival, and maybe even Healing Tide. Those are cooldowns, a short burst of massive healing. Of course it's not going to come into play for most of the fight, where Eternal Flame and Light of Dawn actually see regular usage in a fight regardless of the amount of damage that's going out. If any of the cooldowns come up as your top heals, you are doing something incredibly wrong. Seriously, why are you lumping them together?
Edited by Fistlobster on 6/9/2013 4:28 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
8410

A unless they are doing heroic modes, a lot of the player base doesn't care what WoL says as far as numbers go.


Oh! So most players don't care that we're underperforming? Good to know. So by that logic, no healer buffs, ever, to any class were neccessary. Since most players don't care if a healer underperforms and since the boss wil still die. Right?

This argument is merely an attempt to ignore data. This is the primary dissenting argument for a Resto Shaman rebalance. "Ignore the data and stop whining!!"

Would someone use some kind of data to make their point? Show me on WoL how we are not underperforming. However you'd like to present that data. At least attempt to prove that Resto Shaman are fine using something other than personal anecdote.


Your argument boils down to "WOL SHOWS WE ARE SO BEHIND, FIX NAO BECAUSE THE SKY IS FALLING". No one from what I have seen in this thread has said shamans don't need fixing, but the panic shamans like you exhibit just because you're low on the meters is, frankly, appalling. Meters are not the only thing that matter, and saying they are is moronic.

Scenario: Pretend that, currently, my raid is having trouble healing Heroic Megeara, especially the Rampages. I'm a raid leader and I have a choice between a Holy paladin and a resto shaman for my raid group. I'm going to pick the resto shaman because they will probably be the sole reason we clear Meg; I have never seen any other class bring an entire raid from near nothing to safe levels the way shamans can. They may be low on the meters, but they'll be damned before they let a raid wipe.

How about, instead of crying that your numbers are low, pay attention to your strengths, work off them, then actually contribute something meaningful, like spell suggestions or edits, comps that work in a shaman's favor, or hints to others struggling with the class, instead of pulling radical meanings from statements about metrics that are being sensationalized.
Edited by Fistlobster on 6/9/2013 4:38 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
06/09/2013 04:27 PMPosted by Fistlobster


LoD/EF both apply mastery bubbles, are useable throughout the fight with their only limiting factor being Holy Power. If you look at a decent Holy Pallies log versus a decent Resto Druids log for example, you will find that often LoD/EF surpass Tranq. But let's assume they don't surpass Tranq. When you factor in the mastery shield LoD/EF applied, there is no question they far surpass Tranq.


Of course it's going to pass Tranq, Divine Hymn, Revival, and maybe even Healing Tide. Those are cooldowns, a short burst of massive healing. Of course it's not going to come into play for most of the fight, where Eternal Flame and Light of Dawn actually see regular usage in a fight regardless of the amount of damage that's going out. If any of the cooldowns come up as your top heals, you are doing something incredibly wrong. Seriously, why are you lumping them together?


Healing Tide routinely comes in as the top heal for most 25 man shaman. Try again please.

Also, you'll notice I was refuting a point made by another poster stating that LoD/EF were not as good as the healer I-Win buttons. I was disputing this point.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8410


Of course it's going to pass Tranq, Divine Hymn, Revival, and maybe even Healing Tide. Those are cooldowns, a short burst of massive healing. Of course it's not going to come into play for most of the fight, where Eternal Flame and Light of Dawn actually see regular usage in a fight regardless of the amount of damage that's going out. If any of the cooldowns come up as your top heals, you are doing something incredibly wrong. Seriously, why are you lumping them together?


Healing Tide routinely comes in as the top heal for most 25 man shaman. Try again please.

Also, you'll notice I was refuting a point made by another poster stating that LoD/EF were not as good as the healer I-Win buttons. I was disputing this point.


Because they aren't. They don't do nearly the amount of healing in such a short time span as LoD/EF. You may be confusing "powerful" for "regularly used", because they are used quite often in a fight, whereas cooldowns are used when massive damage goes out or !@#$ hits the fan.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555


Oh! So most players don't care that we're underperforming? Good to know. So by that logic, no healer buffs, ever, to any class were neccessary. Since most players don't care if a healer underperforms and since the boss wil still die. Right?

This argument is merely an attempt to ignore data. This is the primary dissenting argument for a Resto Shaman rebalance. "Ignore the data and stop whining!!"

Would someone use some kind of data to make their point? Show me on WoL how we are not underperforming. However you'd like to present that data. At least attempt to prove that Resto Shaman are fine using something other than personal anecdote.


Your argument boils down to "WOL SHOWS WE ARE SO BEHIND, FIX NAO BECAUSE THE SKY IS FALLING". No one from what I have seen in this thread has said shamans don't need fixing, but the panic shamans like you exhibit just because you're low on the meters is, frankly, appalling. Meters are not the only thing that matter, and saying they are is moronic.

Scenario: Pretend that, currently, my raid is having trouble healing Heroic Megeara, especially the Rampages. I'm a raid leader and I have a choice between a Holy paladin and a resto shaman for my raid group. I'm going to pick the resto shaman because they will probably be the sole reason we clear Meg; I have never seen any other class bring an entire raid from near nothing to safe levels the way shamans can. They may be low on the meters, but they'll be damned before they let a raid wipe.

How about, instead of crying that your numbers are low, pay attention to your strengths, work off them, then actually contribute something meaningful, like spell suggestions or edits, comps that work in a shaman's favor, or hints to others struggling with the class, instead of pulling radical meanings from statements about metrics that are being sensationalized.


Summary of your point: "Ignore the data and stop whining!!"

In response to your last paragraph; your assumption is that somehow we cannot put full effort into a raid and still at some point post a thread on the forums talking about our shortcomings. What sense does that make? Use basic logic to support your argument to add validity please.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555


Healing Tide routinely comes in as the top heal for most 25 man shaman. Try again please.

Also, you'll notice I was refuting a point made by another poster stating that LoD/EF were not as good as the healer I-Win buttons. I was disputing this point.


Because they aren't. They don't do nearly the amount of healing in such a short time span as LoD/EF. You may be confusing "powerful" for "regularly used", because they are used quite often in a fight, whereas cooldowns are used when massive damage goes out or !@#$ hits the fan.


Are you trying to argue that Paladins need Tranc/Healing Tide equivilent? Cause I think they're fine atop their healing thrones while I shine their shoes as required.
Edited by Luvbacon on 6/9/2013 4:44 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
8410


Because they aren't. They don't do nearly the amount of healing in such a short time span as LoD/EF. You may be confusing "powerful" for "regularly used", because they are used quite often in a fight, whereas cooldowns are used when massive damage goes out or !@#$ hits the fan.


Are you trying to argue that Paladins need Tranc/Healing Tide equivilent? Cause I think they're fine atop their healing thrones while I shine their shoes as required.


I don't...what... I never said anything of the sort. Good god, the inferiority complex you have is maddening.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
06/09/2013 04:42 PMPosted by Luvbacon
How about, instead of crying that your numbers are low, pay attention to your strengths, work off them, then actually contribute something meaningful, like spell suggestions or edits, comps that work in a shaman's favor, or hints to others struggling with the class, instead of pulling radical meanings from statements about metrics that are being sensationalized.


I make these types of suggestions often. And even have a blog with many of these exact things.

totemploppin.wordpress.com

Some of us can walk and chew gum too.
Edited by Luvbacon on 6/9/2013 5:15 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
11635
Point of the several posts above this one, as far as I can tell, is that HTT is mandatory for Resto Shaman, and I'd like to see it become a baseline spell so Resto isn't gimped out of a talent. Dev's, if you're watching please smile in approval or nod! Shamans need HTT in order to function during heavy raid damage. Given that Shamans fail at spread healing, forcing them to take a talent just for their good raid wide heal seems cruel. Doesn't even need buffed, just make it baseline, put a different spell in it's place. As a example you could put in a talent that spawns an air totem that can cast lightning bolt / some sort of wind barrier spell. Shamans are short on air totems. Why not give em some?
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