Sad State of Resto Shaman: Mechanics Oriented

90 Pandaren Priest
14930
As long as absorb heals and spread out fights exist, shaman healing mastery will never be good.
Those that say otherwise don't truly understand resto shaman.


I played a Resto Shaman for two years, right through Firelands. I think I understand the class just fine.

Absorbs are less of a problem than you think they are. They're the most visible problem, but it seems like a lot of people are ignoring the underlying problem ALLOWING them to become so prominent (that would be mana). There are a couple of things that could be fixed that would greatly help Resto Shaman, but nerfing other classes isn't going to fix them. Resto Shaman wouldn't be doing any more well on spread fights, or rapid movement fights, whether you have a Disc Priest or you don't. I raid tested as a Shaman last weekend, and I didn't have a Priest anywhere near me most of the time. The problem was the movement and the spread. It wasn't the Priest. I still looked like absolute crap on the meters because I was constantly dodging...crap.

1) Shaman need something for spread. And "something" isn't a 2.5 second cast spell on another 2 sec CD. I'm sorry, but it doesn't cut it for most of these fights.

2) Shaman need something for movement. Something that they can use more often than every 2 minutes, and no, HST doesn't work for this.

3) Shaman need their Mastery retuned. Blizzard has given healers, as a whole, far too much mana this expansion. Shaman shine when healthbars are low. Healthbars will never be low unless other healers are unable to keep up, which only happens when a) damage is intense enough to punch past their throughput cap and b) they don't have enough mana to keep spamming their highest HPS heal. So for Shaman Mastery to "shine" in this environment, they need to tune it up so that it kicks in at a higher level of health.

Or, alternatively, they can nerf the crap out of mana regen, but I really don't see that one happening.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990

Or, alternatively, they can nerf the crap out of mana regen, but I really don't see that one happening.


I don't see it happening either.

And I basically agree with your points. I was a Resto Shaman for the end of BC, all of WotLK, and all of Cataclysm, and Resto Shaman have simply never received the revamp they really needed once Blizzard heavily pushed for homogenization among classes. Resto lost too many iconic strengths that were never really replaced or revamped for the current meta, and have been perpetually behind as a result. Even worse, Blizzard is so incredibly stubborn about how Resto Shaman should be playing that their comments (when they bother to say anything) simply do not match reality.

Shaman's stack healing niche is where, exactly? What stack healing fights are clearly making up for the huge gulf in effectiveness that Shaman suffer during movement and spreading? Occasionally 3rd place=stack healing niche? Oh, and what healers are weak at stacked healing? I don't see a single one. Mastery? When has this actually mattered outside of the most bleeding of progression that basically no one here should care about? And even if you are bleeding edge progression, then you should understand that a Mastery so useless outside of that context (in PvE) is imbalanced.

Even recently, after GC mentioned that a range increase (and nothing else) on Chain Heal would instantly lead to Chain Heal spam. That comment alone is so incredibly ignorant I just didn't know what to say.

Not to "blame the victims", but if you all don't stay far away from the spec after the expansion is over (primo reroll time), or until Blizzard proves that they are actually ready to get their !@#$ together, I won't feel as sorry about it as I do now. Legendary questline? I can understand. "It can't be worse than Cata"? That was a reasonable expectation. But if you aren't happy at all with the class now, there is no reason to think things are going to get better until they actually do.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
06/29/2013 01:08 PMPosted by Thaimaishu
Even recently, after GC mentioned that a range increase (and nothing else) on Chain Heal would instantly lead to Chain Heal spam. That comment alone is so incredibly ignorant I just didn't know what to say.


it also makes me think, to be frank, that he is a liar (or maybe a little dumb). How can he say that with a straight face when there are classes that are coming close to two-spell spam as we speak?
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Not to "blame the victims", but if you all don't stay far away from the spec after the expansion is over (primo reroll time), or until Blizzard proves that they are actually ready to get their !@#$ together, I won't feel as sorry about it as I do now. Legendary questline? I can understand. "It can't be worse than Cata"? That was a reasonable expectation. But if you aren't happy at all with the class now, there is no reason to think things are going to get better until they actually do.


I know this is going to sound melodramatic, but it's my honest opinion - SoO so far has proven to be worse than Firelands. I'm hoping that the bosses we test on Monday will be different, but I have my doubts.
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100 Goblin Shaman
21550
Firelands was not even all that bad. That is the funny part. Yet they still commented on the weakness there.. I remember there were just quite a few shamans on this board who were pretty vocal on how it was limited to just a few fights, which is pretty true. You certainly don't see that as much now with regards to ToT fights or SoO.

I mean tell me legitimately, who had issues healing shannox (lol), beth (high damage phase = stack up), alysrazor (high damage phase = stack up), baleroc (we did pretty good here), domo (high damage phase = stack up).

I do agree h rhyolyth was a PITA if you didn't have heavy ranged (since then you could use healing rain on the ranged / heals group)..

And of course the big outlier was ragnaros which I completely agree - this was the one fight where shaman struggled ostensibly.

But for 5-6/7 normals or heroics (never did ragnaros heroic and 1 or 2 more during the tier but it still is pretty accurate), we were pretty fine. Its just that ragnaros was the end tier boss - that magnified the problems.

And yes, that statement worries me from what I have seen of SoO videos.
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100 Orc Shaman
15545
Bashti Baumann
@Ghostcrawler Resto Shaman are lacking in the PTR 5.4 at the moment. Any hope for compensation considering the poor spread healing we got ?

Greg Street
@BashtiBaumann We buffed Chain Heal, Healing Rain and Riptide all for 5.4. We want to see how those changes play out in testing.

Greg Street
@BashtiBaumann We understand players will say that's not enough, but we still want shaman to care about grouping and to perform better then.

Alex Mills
@Ghostcrawler @BashtiBaumann Make chaining glyph baseline with no CD for resto.

Greg Street
@BigAl921 No CD means your rotation would likely turn into CH CH CH CH CH CH. It was that way once....

Alex Mills
@Ghostcrawler Also, if CH is being spam, that implies other abilities aren't good enough and should be buffed so CH doesn't HAVE to be spam

Greg Street
@BigAl921 That argues that no spell needs a cooldown, just buffs to other spells. We don't think rotations work that way.

---

Bashti Baumann
@Ghostcrawler What use does the Conductivity Change have if you cant have 2 Healing Rains at a time?

Greg Street
@BashtiBaumann The idea is you can keep HR going without spending the cast time just by casting other spells.

Greg Street
@BashtiBaumann It isn't intended to let you splash rains around the entire raid, and technically the spell cannot even work that way.
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Firelands was not even all that bad. That is the funny part. Yet they still commented on the weakness there.. I remember there were just quite a few shamans on this board who were pretty vocal on how it was limited to just a few fights, which is pretty true. You certainly don't see that as much now with regards to ToT fights or SoO.

I mean tell me legitimately, who had issues healing shannox (lol), beth (high damage phase = stack up), alysrazor (high damage phase = stack up), baleroc (we did pretty good here), domo (high damage phase = stack up).

I do agree h rhyolyth was a PITA if you didn't have heavy ranged (since then you could use healing rain on the ranged / heals group)..

Our throughput breakdown was considerably different back then, which is why H FL was actually better than ToT and potentially Siege.

Shannox: I don't think anyone cared about Shannox at all. Most damage came from Rageface, which we could deal easily with through GHW bombing and it was not deadly unless you lacked burst to get it off.

Beth: H Beth p1 was a pain compared to normal, but I felt it was made up for by being decent at healing the upper level, specially on 10m as we did great for the tanks getting wrecked there. P2 was a big "stack on her butt and heal", so no real issue.

Rhyolith: Hated by everyone. If you had enough range, it wasn't much of an issue as HR could be used well. GHW spam was also effective for healing tanks tanking sparks. Would feel like a heaven compared to Tortos.

Alysrazor: P1 was basically spam GHW on tanks as they were the only ones to take real damage. We were not as amazing/OP as a paladin, but still did good. Reborn phase was a huge stacking phase.

Baleroc: Better than druids and a mile ahead of Holy Priests. While we paled compared to Paladin/Disc due to how their mechanics interacted with the healing buff, we still did well.

Staghelm: If you did Scorpion phases, we did good. If you skipped them all, we still did ok but not top. Loot piñata.

Back in Firelands, Healing Rain was our best spell but not by the same margin as it is now. GHW spam could be sustained with more ease than now and actually did a very solid level of HPS as it did more relative healing compared to now. This is because we had no throughput CDs back then, so all of our healing was baked into our active spells. Also, HR did not get a flat 20% buff back then nor did it get a 30% buff from UE.
Edited by Korghal on 6/29/2013 3:43 PM PDT
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100 Goblin Shaman
21550
Oh I completely agree with you. Yeah i forgot to indicate it, but GHW back then used to heal for a large chunk of a persons health. Healing surge even had a role on baleroc unless if you had some ridiculous haste number.

On a side note, one reason why the numbers don't show us completely dominating baleroc (or at least right at disc priests / paladins) was that earth shield never got buffed by the # of healing stacks we got. Considering it was all tank damage and crystal healing... it actually was pretty substantial and unfortunate that it never got fixed.

GHW is pretty weak now and that is part of the reason. But I would hate for them to simply tweak the numbers on GHW rather than adding a new mechanic.

The worst part though is that healing rain now is our "best spell" even though its not super stellar in the stack-up phases (the supposed resto shaman niche). At least back then the GHW bombs were ridiculous. Now, unless if I crit, they are pretty weak relative to what it was back then (though to be fair, everyone's cast-time single target heals got weak relative to what it was in Cata but it feels especially punishing on my shaman).
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From GC's latest twitts (you can see them on the PTR thread), we're basically stuck in the stacked niche from their decision and they are trying to fix the fact that we are not the best at it. Assuming they don't believe the HR +2 radius and Conductivity will make us kings of stack healing, we should see another buff to HR of ridiculous level soon.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
Firelands was not even all that bad. That is the funny part. Yet they still commented on the weakness there.. I remember there were just quite a few shamans on this board who were pretty vocal on how it was limited to just a few fights, which is pretty true. You certainly don't see that as much now with regards to ToT fights or SoO.


From what I remember, it wasn't *just* the stacking that was the problem. As a 10 man raider who fell to the Druid healing "dark side" for his guild and threw my Shaman to the Area 52 pugs, it was things like mana regen and movement as well. Regarding mana, Hpriest had basically the same issues (the other redhead of that tier) with all the non-spirit cloth.

I remember on Beth I was both happy that my WS was proccing and infuriated that I literally had to recast it every 10 seconds (and god help me if I didn't). Then they hotfixed it so Beth didn't proc WS and all of the progress I had made on gear to address my mana seemed to vanish. Spamming GHW was so brutal on my mana, but I HAD to do it cause it was what we had. Same with keeping HR down, but it's what we had. Chasing people on Big Rock guy, chasing people who needed healing on Alyz, and Rag who had a huge mix of everything Shaman hated coalesced into one fight...it added up. It also didn't help that many of these issues were non-existant in 25s (LOL 10s! L2P noobs!), and the "optional" TC Glyph was still around so we had to spam that if we could, even if we didn't want to.

I had been on my Shaman for so long, didn't know what I was doing on my Druid at all (by comparison) and outhealing my "main" with an ilvl of about -25 from the get-go. I was disgusted.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
From GC's latest twitts (you can see them on the PTR thread), we're basically stuck in the stacked niche from their decision and they are trying to fix the fact that we are not the best at it. Assuming they don't believe the HR +2 radius and Conductivity will make us kings of stack healing, we should see another buff to HR of ridiculous level soon.


The good news is that he admitted that the design intent is that Resto Shaman should be superior to every other healer at stacked healing, which is something that is nowhere near the case today. We will likely see further buffs to HR, and he also mentioned nerfing other classes, in particular Monks and SCK so that their stacked healing isn't outshining Shaman. Other things that probably need to be looked at in that regard are Divine Star, Light's Hammer and WM: Bloom if they want to ensure that Shaman stacked healing reigns supreme.

It's obviously not ideal given ToT and SoO (for the fights that we have seen so far) mechanics, but it still would put us in a better spot than we are currently, and we can hope there are some more stacked fights in the 10 SoO fights that we haven't seen yet and/or that there's a fight with a Spine like debuff that SLT trivializes.
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I don't recall Beth getting hotfixed to not proc WS. I recall hitting the WS button every 10 seconds even trying Heroic Beth quite late.

And speaking of WS, I remember the old "Ask the Devs" in the forums. In one particular AtD, we asked why WS refreshing was such a nuisance that no other healer had to deal with except for Paladins judging every 8 seconds, and even that got changed to the 1 min JotP buff in DS. Their answer was that, according to them, pressing WS was "rewarding" and thus wanted to keep it an active ability. Then forward to MoP and we have 1 hour Water Shield. They have a good history of saying one thing and then doing something completely contradictory for Resto Shaman (the "you're fine" with 20% buff one week later this tier is another example).

As a side note, I don't know why ES has charges still. Or why they ditched the ES glyph idea from beta that gave it no charges but lasted around 45 seconds instead.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
06/29/2013 07:20 PMPosted by Tiberria
Other things that probably need to be looked at in that regard are Divine Star, Light's Hammer and WM: Bloom if they want to ensure that Shaman stacked healing reigns supreme.


You should be specific about Divine Star. It's Shadow's version that is the problem. Holy and Disc doesn't even do half as much healing, because our version has diminishing returns after 6 people are healed. Shadow's version has no diminishing returns at all.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
Other things that probably need to be looked at in that regard are Divine Star, Light's Hammer and WM: Bloom if they want to ensure that Shaman stacked healing reigns supreme.


You should be specific about Divine Star. It's Shadow's version that is the problem. Holy and Disc doesn't even do half as much healing, because our version has diminishing returns after 6 people are healed. Shadow's version has no diminishing returns at all.


I am seeing Divine Star account for upwards of 25% of Holy Priest output on stacked fights. If the goal is make Shaman stacked output be superior to that of other healers, that probably needs to be one of the things they scale back. It's a bigger problem than SCK is.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8ltd4km2uocv8skt/sum/healingDone/?s=11844&e=12232
Edited by Tiberria on 6/29/2013 7:45 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I am seeing Divine Star account for upwards of 25% of Holy Priest output on stacked fights. If the goal is make Shaman stacked output be superior to that of other healers, that probably needs to be one of the things they scale back. It's a bigger problem than SCK is.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8ltd4km2uocv8skt/sum/healingDone/?s=11844&e=12232


Um, sure, because apparently she didn't know what her Prayer of Mending button was. even though she had 2 pc T15 + Divine Insight.

And only because your Spriests were slacking. Our Spriest has done 19.5 million healing on that fight.

There's no way that Divine Star should be beating out PoM on a Holy Priest with both Divine Insight and the set bonus. Divine Star never even approaches 30% of my healing on stack fights.
Edited by Tiriel on 6/29/2013 7:57 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
I am seeing Divine Star account for upwards of 25% of Holy Priest output on stacked fights. If the goal is make Shaman stacked output be superior to that of other healers, that probably needs to be one of the things they scale back. It's a bigger problem than SCK is.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8ltd4km2uocv8skt/sum/healingDone/?s=11844&e=12232


Um, sure, because apparently she didn't know what her Prayer of Mending button was. even though she had 2 pc T15 + Divine Insight.

And only because your Spriests were slacking. Our Spriest has done 19.5 million healing on that fight.

There's no way that Divine Star should be beating out PoM on a Holy Priest with both Divine Insight and the set bonus. Divine Star never even approaches 30% of my healing on stack fights.


It's just not really necessary for SPriests to push more healing at a DPS loss on that fight when everyone is at 60-70% overhealing (even with 5 healers), and P2 raid healing (even on the first kill) was never really a concern. The only thing that can really wipe you on that fight is screwing up passing the debuff, not killing orbs and tank deaths.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
It's just not really necessary for SPriests to push more healing at a DPS loss on that fight when everyone is at 60-70% overhealing (even with 5 healers), and P2 raid healing (even on the first kill) was never really a concern. The only thing that can really wipe you on that fight is screwing up passing the debuff, not killing orbs and tank deaths.


That's really not the point. Look, I know you have a thing about healing Priests. I understand that. But Divine Star has a lot of drawbacks and really heals for very little individually. The only reason it was so high in terms of healing done for your Holy Priest is that she wasn't actually doing what a Holy Priest should be doing - which is massaging her Prayer of Mending button as often as possible.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
06/29/2013 08:13 PMPosted by Tiriel
It's just not really necessary for SPriests to push more healing at a DPS loss on that fight when everyone is at 60-70% overhealing (even with 5 healers), and P2 raid healing (even on the first kill) was never really a concern. The only thing that can really wipe you on that fight is screwing up passing the debuff, not killing orbs and tank deaths.


That's really not the point. Look, I know you have a thing about healing Priests. I understand that. But Divine Star has a lot of drawbacks and really heals for very little individually. The only reason it was so high in terms of healing done for your Holy Priest is that she wasn't actually doing what a Holy Priest should be doing - which is massaging her Prayer of Mending button as often as possible.


Yet - he ranked 10th on that fight, which led me to dig into what other Holy Priests with high parses on that fight are doing.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/US-EU/Throne_of_Thunder/Ra-den/25H/Holy_Priest/

Almost every single one in the top 20 has Divine Star at 20%+ and doing more healing than PoM, which leads me to believe that it probably is the easiest thing that could be nerfed if they wanted to bring Priest stacked AoE healing down a notch. It would make the most sense, because everything else they could touch would hit spread healing as much as stacked.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Yet - he ranked 10th on that fight, which led me to dig into what other Holy Priests with high parses on that fight are doing.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/US-EU/Throne_of_Thunder/Ra-den/25H/Holy_Priest/

Almost every single one in the top 20 has Divine Star at 20%+ and doing more healing than PoM, which leads me to believe that it probably is the easiest thing that could be nerfed if they wanted to bring Priest stacked AoE healing down a notch. It would make the most sense, because everything else they could touch would hit spread healing as much as stacked.


Disc Priests just wouldn't take the spell at all, because it wouldn't be worth it. If it healed for less, better to grab Cascade or even Halo, if they can manage to dart out and back in. Halo is already better than Divine Star on every fight except for Megeara (depends), Ji-Kun (if doing nests, otherwise Halo all the way), and Ra-Den. Holy Priests might still take it, because of the massive boost Sanc Chakra gives the spell, but so far Blizzard has proved itself very wary of nerfing Holy given their poor representation pretty much everywhere. I mean, they're not much further ahead of Shaman and you wanna nerf them. lol
Edited by Tiriel on 6/29/2013 8:46 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
Yet - he ranked 10th on that fight, which led me to dig into what other Holy Priests with high parses on that fight are doing.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/US-EU/Throne_of_Thunder/Ra-den/25H/Holy_Priest/

Almost every single one in the top 20 has Divine Star at 20%+ and doing more healing than PoM, which leads me to believe that it probably is the easiest thing that could be nerfed if they wanted to bring Priest stacked AoE healing down a notch. It would make the most sense, because everything else they could touch would hit spread healing as much as stacked.


Disc Priests just wouldn't take the spell at all, because it wouldn't be worth it. If it healed for less, better to grab Cascade or even Halo, if they can manage to dart out and back in. Halo is already better than Divine Star on every fight except for Megeara (depends), Ji-Kun (if doing nests, otherwise Halo all the way), and Ra-Den. Holy Priests might still take it, because of the massive boost Sanc Chakra gives the spell, but so far Blizzard has proved itself very wary of nerfing Holy given their poor representation pretty much everywhere. I mean, they're not much further ahead of Shaman and you wanna nerf them. lol


GC said tonight that the design intent is that Shaman are the clear #1 healer in stacked fights and they want to get us to that point. That involves either (or probably a combination of) a major buff to HR or nerfs to the stacked healing capabilities of other healers to put their stacked healing below ours. I fear for how much they would have to buff HR to get it to that point (we probably need a 20-25% buff to stacked healing) - it probably would need a 50% buff, which then makes it mana efficient to drop on even a single target. They might be better off just nerfing other classes' stacked niche heals.
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