Sad State of Resto Shaman: Mechanics Oriented

90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
I don't know how you guys honestly put up with playing the class in a 10m environment anymore.

25m I can understand having 1 or 2 in there, but 10m there's very very few places where a shaman is desired over another class.

In 10m resto shamans are absolutely one of the best possible healers to heal with...
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90 Troll Shaman
14350
As mentioned I went with all glyphs in an attempt to say yes a lot of these are good or okay for the other specs, but here are some that seem weird. (Response to Shaylana)

Totemic Projection can be used that way, but it seems that you miss out on the extra uptime the other two talents offer.

About the Primal Elementalist Talent, it just doesn't seem as useful, given that you already need to be tracking all your other totems, tracking a pet's spell cast seems like additional micro-management. I'm also speaking overall, so just in the one fight against Dark Animus it could be very useful, but in another fight it could be less useful. Given also that shamans are currently underperforming against all the other healer types, that one minute buff almost seems needed.

The T15 I still hold to it that it's less than useful though, mainly because unless you have large natural heals the little ancestor that spawns via the bonus doesn't heal as much. I'm unsure if the sheer volume of them compensates for the reduced heals they give.

I am aware though that for the vast majority of Wow players they do not view averages or WoL / Raidbot, but they are useful tools and personally, Seeing shamans consistently under the bar is what irks me and why I wrote this post.

Also, Shaylana, if possible could you post what addons you use? The normal UI is not very helpful when you have to single target heal every person, and raid wide damage I would assume is the bane of your existence. If not, I'm interested in seeing how you handled this, and if possible to spread it around and help other shamans with spread healing.


I'm not sure how replacing totems or getting an extra hst is better than making sure my totems are always effective and allow me to position better. But that's just me. I am just glad HST doesn't override SLT and it's the only time you can have two water totems up.

As for tracking your Pet, I never really found it that hard. If people are having trouble with it, just have an empower macro ready. It just takes some getting used to.

As for add ons, I heal with Healium and clique and use weak auras to track various things. I do break out Grid when I do LFR 25 mans. I never liked Healbot, and I started using Vuhdo on my Resto Druid I am leveling to practice it. I just haven't figured out how to get it to look pretty yet, and well, I like pretty.

Raidwide damage the bane of my existence? Nah. The best thing would be Tortos Stomp. People are spread far. Use a cooldown like HTT or Ascendance, or pop Spiritwalkers and surge like crazy then drop MTT to recover. I've even swtItched my HTT from one side of the room to the other to spread it, I do that with HST to spread the 10% damage reduction glyph. For 10 mans haste is a great stat for us, so Greater Healing Wave is ~1.2 with Tidal Waves up.

(quote)Well, I think our gearing choices should impact our gameplay, but I didn't mean a resto shaman should believe "I stack spirit! I'm a mana battery!" or "I stack mastery! I only heal the raid when it's low!". Our gearing choices are about balancing our stats to match our personal playstyle within the class constraints. All classes have to do this; I just think rshammy choices are more interesting than some other specs.(end quote)

I agreee in some respects. I think Shamans can reprioritze stat weights to best accomodate the healing team. I wouldn't say that it's more interesting than other classes... but it feels more fun to me.
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90 Tauren Shaman
8940
I think Shamans can reprioritze stat weights to best accomodate the healing team. I wouldn't say that it's more interesting than other classes... but it feels more fun to me.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. You think it's fun to have to stack Spirit to be a mana battery? Or are you saying, that for example, your raid is frequently low on health, and you find it fun to adjust your Mastery to compensate for that?
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90 Troll Shaman
14350
06/10/2013 04:01 AMPosted by Nahuul
I think Shamans can reprioritze stat weights to best accomodate the healing team. I wouldn't say that it's more interesting than other classes... but it feels more fun to me.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. You think it's fun to have to stack Spirit to be a mana battery? Or are you saying, that for example, your raid is frequently low on health, and you find it fun to adjust your Mastery to compensate for that?


I think it's cool that I can be heavy haste with absorb healers. But if I am healing with HoT friends, I can stack more crit and just throw out healing surges when needed and regain mana with crits on Healing Waves. I am not a big fan of Mastery because Raid Cooldowns are what you use for those periods in the fights, so Mastery in PvE really just feels like super emergencies only-and other classes have better tools than us.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8410
06/10/2013 04:01 AMPosted by Nahuul
I think Shamans can reprioritze stat weights to best accomodate the healing team. I wouldn't say that it's more interesting than other classes... but it feels more fun to me.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. You think it's fun to have to stack Spirit to be a mana battery? Or are you saying, that for example, your raid is frequently low on health, and you find it fun to adjust your Mastery to compensate for that?


As stated above, why does it have to be one or the other? Haste and Crit have direct correlations to throughput and would be far more useful in all situations than the other two.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
6560
I don't know how you guys honestly put up with playing the class in a 10m environment anymore.

25m I can understand having 1 or 2 in there, but 10m there's very very few places where a shaman is desired over another class.

In 10m resto shamans are absolutely one of the best possible healers to heal with...


I am an extremely casual 10m raider, and I definitely don't feel as weak as some of the threads on this forum suggest shamans are, leading me to think they are worse in 25m. But to say we are one of the best possible healers in 10 man, I just completely disagree. Pally and priest are clearly more desirable, I would even put monks ahead of us for 10 man. For all of last tier I 2 healed with a druid friend of mine who recently quit, so my experiences as a rshaman were in an environment that could best utilize my abilities. When we added a disc priest everything changed for our raid, and I could feel it as a healer. I understand the pushback against the stupidity that we are x% behind other healers in hps, but don't fall prey to the same mistake the other direction, and make up assertions like this one.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9355
06/09/2013 04:12 PMPosted by Luvbacon
I won't deny that LoD/EF is much better for spread healing than chain heal/HR, but I certainly wouldn't put it at the level of tranq/revival/DH.


LoD/EF both apply mastery bubbles, are useable throughout the fight with their only limiting factor being Holy Power. If you look at a decent Holy Pallies log versus a decent Resto Druids log for example, you will find that often LoD/EF surpass Tranq. But let's assume they don't surpass Tranq. When you factor in the mastery shield LoD/EF applied, there is no question they far surpass Tranq.

Healing Tide routinely comes in as the top heal for most 25 man shaman. Try again please.

Also, you'll notice I was refuting a point made by another poster stating that LoD/EF were not as good as the healer I-Win buttons. I was disputing this point.

I am well aware of what they do. My point is, they aren't major CDs. They are spells meant to be used consistently throughout a fight. My point was not that they are not good for spread healing. They will not pump out the same amount of healing in the same time frame as one of the major raid CDs without assistance. I may have been better served by saying they are not in the same niche, rather than at the same level. The point was, they serve two different functions in a healer's toolkit.

I don't think it's really relevant to the thread anyway.
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22 Gnome Warrior
80
From Raidbots:

Be smart about using this data in discussions of class balance. Don't just look at the overall charts and QQ on forums. The truth is usually more nuanced than what is shown here.


I can manipulate 25H mode data to show Discipline Priests near the bottom of the Spec Score list and Resto Shaman near the top.

In ToT, there are some fights where Resto Shaman will not top the healing charts. If that is what you mean by "Sad State", then OK.

The reality is Resto shaman have all the tools a healer needs: single target, smart AoE, grouped AoE, HoTs, movement and "Oh Cr@p!" cooldowns. Some can even be combined to yield massive burst healing.

As more logs portray bosses on farm status, the power of Shields, HoTs and Smart Heals begin to take over the results. The value of shaman mastery becomes devalued.

But while undergeared and progressing, it sure is nice to have that burst shaman healing.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
06/10/2013 06:03 AMPosted by Billywd
But to say we are one of the best possible healers in 10 man, I just completely disagree.

Disc and Holy Pals are the outlier, as always. But shamans are still probably the best healer to 2heal with this tier.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
06/10/2013 01:32 PMPosted by Fleurs
But to say we are one of the best possible healers in 10 man, I just completely disagree.

Disc and Holy Pals are the outlier, as always. But shamans are still probably the best healer to 2heal with this tier.


If the other healer wants to rank as high as possible, for sure. :P
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
06/10/2013 01:36 PMPosted by Tiberria

Disc and Holy Pals are the outlier, as always. But shamans are still probably the best healer to 2heal with this tier.


If the other healer wants to rank as high as possible, for sure. :P

=\
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I'm beginning to think that this all stems from Tiberria's insecurity as a player.


And I'm beginning to think that you have nothing better to do than shoot off personal attacks. Attacking someone personally over attacking their idea/argument is a sign of either immaturity or admitting that one is wrong.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
17050
Only when it comes to you, boo. <3
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90 Goblin Shaman
10585
I can manipulate 25H mode data to show Discipline Priests near the bottom of the Spec Score list and Resto Shaman near the top.


i'd really like to see this... I mean I can buy disc priest near bottom on a very select few list of fights where everyone plays holy / holy is just 10x better. But I'd like to see where rsham is above 4th because at BEST we are always from my understanding below MW, Hpriest, Rdruid. And usually below the other 2 with a couple of outlier fights.

The reality is Resto shaman have all the tools a healer needs: single target, smart AoE, grouped AoE, HoTs, movement and "Oh Cr@p!" cooldowns. Some can even be combined to yield massive burst healing.


the reality is you're completely and utterly wrong. Our "oh crap" CDs have to be used for throughput to be at all competitive and at worst they are going to be assigned. Our "smart" AoE and "grouped" AoE are the same spell unless you are counting the tier bonus of healing stream as AoE? That's pretty funny... Otherwise we have chain heal, which is in its current state STILL fairly weak (better than what it was), and very range limited. Our movement CD needs to be paired with our "Oh Cr@p!" cd (ascendance and swg) on any fight that actually requires high movement and healing at the same time... meaning outside of a 20s period every 3 minutes we have very little to do while moving. And NONE of these abilities come close to reaching the burst potential of any other raid healing spec. Priest divine star/halo + CoH while still having a "healing stream" (lightwell), MW monk uplift, rdruid mushroom bloom are all "burst" abilities. We don't have anything that is instacast that remotely compares to these abilities for burst.
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22 Gnome Warrior
80
06/10/2013 03:46 PMPosted by Nazoikar
the reality is you're completely and utterly wrong.


I get it. You want to top the healing meters and are angry you cannot snipe heal constant, low level damage like a disc priest that pads the meters.

What you can do is better manage your cool downs to heal when it counts. Quite frankly, I see discrepancies between the details of WorldofLogs and the Spec Score charts so often quoted from Raidbots.

There are a few 25H fights where shaman dominate the fights on Log reports. It is more instructive to drill into those details and see what the shaman is doing when.

Only a Blue can say for sure, but my sense has always been that they do not balance healing specs based on overall HPS for a fight. These spec score arguments grow tiresome.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
11635
the reality is you're completely and utterly wrong. Our "oh crap" CDs have to be used for throughput to be at all competitive and at worst they are going to be assigned. Our "smart" AoE and "grouped" AoE are the same spell unless you are counting the tier bonus of healing stream as AoE? That's pretty funny... Otherwise we have chain heal, which is in its current state STILL fairly weak (better than what it was), and very range limited. Our movement CD needs to be paired with our "Oh Cr@p!" cd (ascendance and swg) on any fight that actually requires high movement and healing at the same time... meaning outside of a 20s period every 3 minutes we have very little to do while moving. And NONE of these abilities come close to reaching the burst potential of any other raid healing spec. Priest divine star/halo + CoH while still having a "healing stream" (lightwell), MW monk uplift, rdruid mushroom bloom are all "burst" abilities. We don't have anything that is instacast that remotely compares to these abilities for burst.
This, oh this so hard. Shamans CAN play at the level of other healers, but they just don't have a diversity of spells to play with that let them play well. Does the class work? Yes absolutely, that's not in contention. What is in contention is that the class as it stands is less fun to play if you want results. I'm not sure if anyone forgot, but WoW is a game. A game should be fun, or there's not a big point to play. Should it be challenging? Yes! The point at which it becomes too challenging is not a good thing.

I'm sure that through some technical wizardry you can make Shamans near the top, but there's no denying that absorb healers destroy the HpS of any other healer. Such to the point that play style has to be adjusted to snipe those heals.

Also to everyone saying that Resto Shamans are fine, look at those logs, and tell me how spread out the other healers are. Then tell me where Shamans sit on those logs. Most other healers are sitting nicely among each other, within ~5-10% tops. Shamans however are 'with' the other healers.

I would also like to offer a suggestion about burst healing that may or may not be heard. Life Shock would be a nice mobile instant cast spell, could be on a 10-20 second CD. Perhaps give it just the amount of healing a Ripetide would give, but do it upfront without the HoT. This would make a lot of people happy, and wouldn't OP Shamans too terribly I think. If for some reason Shamans do become too powerful because of it, just put Riptide and Life Shock on a shared CD timer. Or you know, flip the glyph for riptide so it does no HoT and just heals everything up front. Both are the same idea.

Alternately, perhaps a stacking buff that when you cast HR or CH it decreases cast time by like 50% and stacks up to 2 times? Usable only on healing spells, but it would add mobility.

Thoughts?

EDIT:: Prattle, it's not that Shamans should be on the top of the healing meters, it's that they(the Shamans) should matter a little bit more than they do now. (The Shamans, not the meters, kindly do not twist words here.) That you assume Shamans are just whining about not winning the healing meter is laughable. I'm sure you could find Shamans who do want to win the healing meters, but that's not the point here. The point here, in case you've confused it for something else, is that the Shaman toolkit needs a little TLC. We're talking mechanics here, not raw throughput, new mechanics would produce more throughput probably, but it's the mechanics themselves we're talking about. Shaman HpS is low enough that a little boost won't have them dominating the charts.
Edited by Garous on 6/10/2013 8:00 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Shaman
16540
06/09/2013 08:10 AMPosted by Tiberria
Because people being that low on health doesn't happen enough or for a long enough duration for (at least in the 25H raiding environment - not that sure on 10 mans) it to warrant a separate stat.


Preach it.

It happens even less in 10s than 25s I would imagine. Mastery is awful and needs a change.

I get it. You want to top the healing meters and are angry you cannot snipe heal constant, low level damage like a disc priest that pads the meters.


This just.... this just gets my thoughts all trapped up, like in a bottle.

Mind bottling.

In a progression guild, where you have to fight for your spot, if you sit there and don't snipe heal, don't use you're 'oh crap' cooldowns on cooldown for throughput, you're going to get a talking to about why you're so damn far behind all the other healers.

At the end of the day, heading into next patch, our healing as a class is sub-par unless we use our cooldowns. Our cooldowns are sub-par as cooldowns, and we have giant weaknesses (i.e. spread and movement healing). Why take a resto shaman who is on the bottom of the metre? Why not take that other disc who can 'snipe heal constant, low level damage' and ensure the raid never gets low in the first place.
Edited by Convictfish on 6/10/2013 9:25 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Priest
10180
Scenario: Pretend that, currently, my raid is having trouble healing Heroic Megeara, especially the Rampages. I'm a raid leader and I have a choice between a Holy paladin and a resto shaman for my raid group. I'm going to pick the resto shaman because they will probably be the sole reason we clear Meg; I have never seen any other class bring an entire raid from near nothing to safe levels the way shamans can. They may be low on the meters, but they'll be damned before they let a raid wipe.


I want to agree with you, but. You managed to pick the only fight that shamans can perform well on. One, because it's a stack fight (one of two or three in ToT) and two, it's literally the only healing check in ToT.

No shaman is complaining about feeling useless on Megaera. They're complaining about literally being useless on Dark Animus and Horridon.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9210
I'm confused by all the recent hate for Deep Healing, when in the past it's been considered a useful stat, even to stack.

If it's a numbers problem tweak it, but I don't think its a fundamentally broken design.

When a spec's mastery is bad or not suited for the current healing game just avoid it, like Mistweavers already do.
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