Fire PvP Questions

Hey everyone, yes I know, I'm not that good. Yet, I really enjoy the Mage class. I had a few questions for some of the better Arena players out there.

I currently don't have time for a serious 3's team and my friend and I just do 2's. currently we're running disc fire/frost. I feel better playing as fire at the moment and that's what I'm running.

What is the current stat priority? I haven't really seen a thread on this.

I'm also looking for a little assistance. I've made a macro which produces my on use trink, PoM, and Alter Time. I don't know why but it bugs hard, often depleting my AT and PoM before use. No they aren't being purged/dispelled. Any ideas??

Also what's the best way to deal with dispel classes? I get purged so much I wanna ram my face into a bed of nails. It seems any dispel class and melee just bends me over for 25 minutes without me being able to force enough pressure. Any suggestions would be awesome. Thank you!
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90 Worgen Mage
9815
Hey everyone, yes I know, I'm not that good. Yet, I really enjoy the Mage class. I had a few questions for some of the better Arena players out there.

I currently don't have time for a serious 3's team and my friend and I just do 2's. currently we're running disc fire/frost. I feel better playing as fire at the moment and that's what I'm running.

What is the current stat priority? I haven't really seen a thread on this.

I'm in a similar boat. Just started playing Arenas seriously and pushing for rating.

The stat priority tends to differ from one Fire mage to the next. Some stack to crit and haste, while others go for Intellect and Crit. Personally I've gone for Mastery (sits at 40% with the Mage Armor), and find that DoTs deal a good portion of my damage.. sometimes as high as 15-20k per tick. It makes it much easier in healer/DPS comps as I can keep applying pressure on both targets.

06/12/2013 01:40 PMPosted by Earff
I'm also looking for a little assistance. I've made a macro which produces my on use trink, PoM, and Alter Time. I don't know why but it bugs hard, often depleting my AT and PoM before use. No they aren't being purged/dispelled. Any ideas??

I use the same macro, though I haven't encountered this. It does sound more like a purge/dispel to me, and it happens a lot in Arenas.

Also what's the best way to deal with dispel classes? I get purged so much I wanna ram my face into a bed of nails. It seems any dispel class and melee just bends me over for 25 minutes without me being able to force enough pressure. Any suggestions would be awesome. Thank you!

I feel your pain. Since Healers don't go oom anymore, Healer/DPS comps rely on someone making a mistake (like overextending) or being CC'd enough to burn someone down.

All the best!
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Thanks man. I'm about to try a full mastery push, full haste, and an int push. Was just hoping someone had "numbers" to shoot for. I'm a little pissed at the fact that ALL Mage burst/dps relies on DF and not only that, but EVERYTHING we can do can be purged/dispel while every other class gets to faceplant the keyboard for an hour until something dies. Warrior, dk, pally, hunter, rogue all full burst all the time. Angers me a little. Was really hoping someone could give me some advice other than time your polys, DB, and cs better.
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90 Worgen Mage
9815
06/12/2013 05:47 PMPosted by Earff
Thanks man. I'm about to try a full mastery push, full haste, and an int push. Was just hoping someone had "numbers" to shoot for.

Yeah given how Ignite works which is tied into every Fire spell we have in our arsenal (especially Combustion), it's fairly obvious that Blizzard intended Fire to be primarily a DoT cleave class, so it makes more sense to stack Mastery.

The second stat I've forged to is Crit. With the Arc Brilliance buff, I sit at 23.50% Crit. Whilst some Fire Mages go for Haste in order to get extra ticks and spam Scorch a lot more, it's the crits that make the difference both with Pyro-procs, the size of the DoTs, and the chances of crits with each DoT that ticks.

I'm a little pissed at the fact that ALL Mage burst/dps relies on DF and not only that, but EVERYTHING we can do can be purged/dispel while every other class gets to faceplant the keyboard for an hour until something dies. Warrior, dk, pally, hunter, rogue all full burst all the time. Angers me a little. Was really hoping someone could give me some advice other than time your polys, DB, and cs better.

I think a lot of Fire Mages are too reliant on the Deep-burst, and are cut short at the knees for the reasons you've outlined. They then rely on Pyro procs to deal any significant damage outside of that, which can be pretty frustrating and too reliant on chance.

Anyway, you can deal a lot of damage from Nova , Burst Macro (Alter Time + PoM) , Pyro , Inferno , Pyro, Combust , Alter-Time , Pyro , Inferno. It might not be a chain of Pyros in the same regard as someone in a Deep, but the DoTs will make up for it and then some.

I'll upload some Combat Logs to show the amounts that my DoTs deal to give an idea of the damage output when stacked to Mastery.
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91 Undead Mage
14775
INT -> Crit -> Haste -> Mastery

Fire pvp is not about waiting for your target to burn to death. It's about blowing them the f*** up. But hey, that's just my opinion.
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90 Worgen Mage
9815
INT -> Crit -> Haste -> Mastery

Fire pvp is not about waiting for your target to burn to death. It's about blowing them the f*** up. But hey, that's just my opinion.

I think you should play some PvP first and then get back to us with how you got on 'blowing them the f*** up' ;)

And I wouldn't call it 'waiting'. I call it 'downtime' .. such as times when you're CC'd. It's one of the benefits Fire has over Frost.
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That's why I've tried going heavy crit. With int and molten I sit at 31.5% crit. My problem isn't that I don't crit enough, it's that I get my f@ck^ng !@# dispelled to death. Pyros, gone, PoM AT gone, arc brill gone, and scorch spamming isn't applying enough pressure. And once I do get a big enough cc chain in on a healer the dps has a healthy amt of defensive CDs available.

I know all about build a pyro nova, DF, Trink PoM AT, pyro! Pyro pyro! Com AT pyro! Pyro InB. Pulling it off has just been a $%^-*.
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90 Undead Mage
13010
You aren't going to kill them with dot's. Combustion isn't anything like it was in Cataclysm so I would avoid stacking mastery. From watching the top fire mages it all comes down to burst with pyroblasts into a deep freeze using alter time so you want to make sure your macro is operating correctly.

I don't play fire personally but if you want to check out a high rated fire mage look up Hansol. He stacks Int>Crit by the looks of it which makes sense to me.

Make sure the spell order in your alter time macro is correct, the "/cast alter time" must be last and only spells which don't incur a GCD should be used before it (e.g. presence of mind, on use trinket). It is also possible to double tap the macro which will finish alter time almost instantly, meaning you lose any benefit from it but there is means to prevent this. Instead of "/cast alter time", try using this at the end of your macro:

/castsequence reset=1 alter time, flamestrike
/use 1

This won't actually use anything, or cast flamestrike but will prevent alter time from being cancelled early. You could end alter time early with a second macro using:

/cancelaura alter time

Either that or just be careful you don't activate it twice.
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90 Worgen Mage
9815
06/12/2013 07:34 PMPosted by Earff
That's why I've tried going heavy crit. With int and molten I sit at 31.5% crit. My problem isn't that I don't crit enough, it's that I get my f@ck^ng !@# dispelled to death. Pyros, gone, PoM AT gone, arc brill gone, and scorch spamming isn't applying enough pressure. And once I do get a big enough cc chain in on a healer the dps has a healthy amt of defensive CDs available.

Yeh likewise with me when I first played Fire in MoP, and ran into the same problem. I think it's the way Fire used to be played back in Cata, and Combustion was mainly influenced by Living Bomb and Pyroblast.

I know all about build a pyro nova, DF, Trink PoM AT, pyro! Pyro pyro! Com AT pyro! Pyro InB. Pulling it off has just been a $%^-*.

I don't bother with DF as an opener unless I know the player has used their trinket and defensives. A lot of players know how the Mage works and half expects to be put into a Deep as soon as they're Nova'd. The problem is that most will immediately trinket it before you can land your first pyro, and yet not using DF will still grant you a few good hits anyway :)
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90 Worgen Mage
9815
06/12/2013 07:41 PMPosted by Abracadaver
You aren't going to kill them with dot's. Combustion isn't anything like it was in Cataclysm so I would avoid stacking mastery. From watching the top fire mages it all comes down to burst with pyroblasts into a deep freeze using alter time so you want to make sure your macro is operating correctly.

You aren't going to kill them if they trinket / purge / dispell a DF as well, and any good player will avoid situations where they're caught in a Deep with no defensives.

The purpose of DoTs is to contribute sustained damage and pressure. Ignite ticks over 4-secs which isn't very long at all.. and a 20k Ignite means 80k in less time then the space of a Deep - that's not something to laugh off ;)
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Ive spent the entire expansion pvping as fire, in random BGs you'll almost always drop kills if not dmg. And as long as you stay aware and get the flow of it all down you should have next to no deaths (Information may change on number of hunters opposing team has). In arena's I've only done 2s so any information I have is pretty irrelevant to the big scheme of things, but we do just fine in 2s, and can even 1v2 many teams if you like to group with random people from guild and trade... Overall the performance is not only fun, mobile but effective if played fast and correctly.

As far as stats go? Run molten, stack intel and crit. Mastery is useless, reforge outta it. Combustion really should only be used to gain extra pyros or if needed as a clutch stun if desperate times call for it, but 99% of the time its for the pyros.

I usually take frostbite to help lock down healers or for better combo set ups, and I take blazing speed even though your suppose to take PoM. IDK running really fast is fun, I play for the entertainment factor. I'd recommend taking Ice Barrier but I still run flameglow for some reason I haven't figured out yet. As for the rest its pretty basic; cold snap, ward, and living bomb for the fast GCD and since NT has a vendetta against my polymorphs.

Its a different playstyle then Cata, your dots are kinda crap and you need to focus on bursting people down when you can. Play enough and it will become second nature to you and people will just start falling around you.
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My macro is set up in this order trink PoM AT. PRETTY SURE I'm not double tapping it but ill check it out. I even had DF macro'd to this at one point w/ the DF glyph. It was buggy then as well so I pulled it.
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90 Worgen Mage
9815
06/12/2013 08:40 PMPosted by Searik
As far as stats go? Run molten, stack intel and crit. Mastery is useless, reforge outta it. Combustion really should only be used to gain extra pyros or if needed as a clutch stun if desperate times call for it, but 99% of the time its for the pyros.

Whilst it can be played in this way, it is a game of chance (from spam-Scorch) and heavy reliance on Deep Freeze, which doesn't strike me as reliable or practical enough. If you're constantly being CC'd, you're applying very little pressure as you will have a longer amount of downtime.

Since Frost Mages have instant procs from the likes of Orb, Freeze, and Brainfreeze without needing to stack two crits beforehand, they don't suffer from the likes of downtime in the same manner as Fire.

Of course you won't have experienced this much in random BGs or low-end Arenas ;)

My second point relates to the likes of RBGs. The main reason why a leader would want to pick a Fire Mage over Frost is to have sustained damage from DoTs during group fights, as Fire can spread multiple DoTs over several targets which applies a lot more pressure to the group.

If your DoTs aren't contributing anything, then you're only being useful against a single target, which a Frost Mage (and even Arcane) would do a far better job of doing.
Edited by Dactylion on 6/12/2013 9:12 PM PDT
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Common man don't play devils advocate, the poor guys really trying to figure fire out.
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90 Worgen Mage
9815
hahah .. I really do forge to Mastery for Fire, and love this spec.
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90 Undead Mage
5925
Avoid mastery for fire in pvp. It's not bad for pve but it double dips resilience in pvp (The spell hits get's reduced by 65%, then the dot is applied and each tic is reduced by 65%.)

You'll be going int > crit > haste. Gem, and enchant all int. Reforge 6% hit > all crit > remaining haste.

Fire is quite a bit harder to play, and land kills with then frost is. Fire is viable, but it's easy to counter as you've recently found out with offensive dispels. You are forced to rely on your partners or use several cooldowns to protect your deep freeze, and or pyro procs. Often you'll want to blanket silence the healer any time you deep freeze to avoid it from being disp'd as this is ALL of your main damage. You're dot damage is crap, and you don't get many procs outside of your DF. So protect the deep at all cost. To protect you're pyro procs you'll either start cc'ing 3-4 seconds before your fire blast comes off CD to change your heating up to a pyroblast and hope you can get them CC'd long enough to get your target frozen, deeped, and start your rotation.

There are a lot of macros you can use as fire to help you get started, and a lot of tricks to get pyro and put out bigger numbers. Hansol is a youtube star he plays fire exclusively and makes many video's that would help someone get started playing fire.
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfeaD828rBBXgpaBP59XmjQ
That's his youtube channel. Check it out you might be able to pick up a few macros, addons, tricks, and tips.

*I'm currently a 2100 exp fire mage* I've tried every fire spec including the mastery spec and trust me when I say you just won't be able to put out as much damage with that spec. You'll lose out on damage when your combustion doesn't crit and it ruins your burst instead.
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90 Troll Mage
7785
If your dependent on Deep kills haste has alot of benefit once your frozen crit capped dont forget it reduced the global by the same % which impacts your instant pyros.

I go back and forth between fire and frost in bgs and have yet to arena as a mage but it is obvious that fire is more suseptable to offensive dispels. You can try the CS glyph although I don't see anyone else really use it and blanket silence the dispeller when you go to burst. Fire is also more dependent on AT to make kill attempts which feels limiting to me.

If your in twos I'd try to go double dps, if your the only dps they have all day to monitor your buffs and purge your buffs and dispel your deeps before you can do anything. Having a dps partner made this harder when I played a comp with dispel.
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90 Worgen Mage
9815
Here's three Recount Logs.

One against a Training Dummy:
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb53/sacrednic/FireMageDummyResult01_zps384a46f0.jpg


One against a player in a duel:
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb53/sacrednic/FireMageDuelResult_zps7218ee71.jpg


One from last night's Arena (they were a 1650 team):
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb53/sacrednic/FireMageArenaResult01_zps8021cf20.jpg


The training dummy and duel involved 3x Pyroblasts, 1x Inferno Blast , 1x Combustion and 1x Nova. This alone did 419k damage to my dueling partner, without the use of Deep Freeze.

Note that Combustion came second in contributing to my overall damage in each of the three logs. The reason why it hits so hard is due to having a high Ignite DoT. The reason why the Ignite DoT is so high is due to Mastery.

In fact Ignite and Combustion were close to one another in total damage from the Arena results.
Edited by Dactylion on 6/12/2013 11:32 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
8725
Mastery stacked glyphed combustion at the tail end of a shatter, 65k crits every second for 20 seconds. Working on that vid now. Trying for a 2.2 mill Arcane shatter combo but the procs are not cooperating.

I still need the last 800 mastery from different itemization. Im still 2k from 25000 before i can buy that all with honor. Could have more but the stupid PVE trinkets are all Haste/Crit/Hit passives :(

edit: you can get 80ish k combustion ticks if you squeeze the 4th pyro into a PoM/alter/DF shatter and then your second PoM, Frostjaw, Combust
Edited by Emeka on 6/13/2013 2:33 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Mage
9815
Beautiful. I'm definitely going to try that!

Post the vid man.. or better yet, what's your Channel?
Edited by Dactylion on 6/13/2013 12:10 AM PDT
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