5.4 Ret 4-Piece

100 Human Paladin
17760
Updated set piece:

Holy Power consumers have a 25% chance to make your next Divine Storm free.and deal 50% more damage.Holy Power consumers have a 25% chance to make your next Divine Storm free.and deal 50% more damage.


Is it still enough even without generating Holy Power?

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S̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶f̶i̶r̶s̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶e̶r̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶t̶r̶i̶b̶u̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶4̶-̶p̶i̶e̶c̶e̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶a̶s̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶q̶u̶e̶s̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶.̶
H̶o̶l̶y̶ ̶P̶o̶w̶e̶r̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶u̶m̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶2̶5̶%̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶n̶e̶x̶t̶ ̶D̶i̶v̶i̶n̶e̶ ̶S̶t̶o̶r̶m̶ ̶f̶r̶e̶e̶.̶


T̶o̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶l̶d̶ ̶T̶i̶e̶r̶ ̶1̶0̶ ̶s̶e̶t̶ ̶b̶o̶n̶u̶s̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶s̶ ̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶p̶o̶w̶e̶r̶f̶u̶l̶.̶

I̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶a̶d̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶o̶b̶v̶i̶o̶u̶s̶l̶y̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶m̶m̶o̶-̶c̶h̶a̶m̶p̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶m̶e̶a̶n̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶a̶l̶ ̶v̶e̶r̶s̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶e̶t̶ ̶p̶i̶e̶c̶e̶,̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶c̶r̶a̶z̶y̶ ̶e̶x̶c̶i̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶a̶p̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶.̶ ̶ ̶F̶e̶e̶d̶b̶a̶c̶k̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶i̶c̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶y̶e̶t̶.̶

S̶o̶,̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶q̶u̶e̶s̶t̶i̶o̶n̶:̶ ̶ ̶W̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶t̶h̶ ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶?̶ ̶ ̶I̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶,̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶m̶a̶y̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶D̶P̶S̶ ̶l̶o̶s̶s̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶g̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶a̶r̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶f̶r̶e̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶v̶i̶n̶e̶ ̶s̶t̶o̶r̶m̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶g̶e̶n̶e̶r̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶h̶o̶l̶y̶ ̶p̶o̶w̶e̶r̶ ̶(̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶t̶)̶.̶ ̶ ̶

S̶o̶m̶e̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶e̶l̶l̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶I̶ ̶a̶m̶ ̶f̶l̶a̶t̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶w̶r̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶l̶e̶a̶s̶e̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶s̶o̶.̶ ̶ ̶I̶ ̶a̶m̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶e̶s̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶f̶i̶g̶u̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶.̶

P̶e̶r̶h̶a̶p̶s̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶b̶o̶o̶s̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶D̶i̶v̶i̶n̶e̶ ̶S̶t̶o̶r̶m̶ ̶d̶i̶d̶?̶ ̶ ̶O̶r̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶h̶a̶p̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶g̶r̶a̶n̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶h̶o̶l̶y̶ ̶p̶o̶w̶e̶r̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶i̶t̶s̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶?̶

I really like the idea of using Divine Storm as a bonus in the rotation when it procs, it just needs to be worth using even on single targets.
Edited by Perseus on 6/20/2013 3:34 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Mage
5535
where the hell are people finding this new tier information. The google, it does nothing!
Edited by Leviathans on 6/11/2013 10:13 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Hunter
11010
where the hell are people finding this new tier information. The google, it does nothing!


mmo-champion.com

With enough haste, I imagine it'd be hard to fit in a free DS in single target situations. It'd have to at least generate HoPo to be worth using. I imagine this one will change/be iterated on with an additional modifier.
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90 Human Paladin
19345
06/11/2013 09:39 PMPosted by Perseus
So, my question: Would that proc be worth using?

Haha. No. Maybe? There are two corollary issues: "will giving up 4-piece T15 be worth gaining 4-piece T16, and, "where will a free DS fit into our rotation." Neither of these makes the set bonus look promising.

Let's think about this for single target:

Divine Storm deals 100% holy weapon damage plus mastery and does not proc Seal of Truth / Censure. Assuming 45k average weapon damage plus 40% mastery, that equals approximately 95k damage after Inquisition and any CoE effects.

Remember that Ret’s priority system is based on damage done coupled with the effective ability CD. Looking at a 300 second (5 minute) boss fight in SimC (50k iterations) using Sanc Wrath, I get 10 uses of Inquisition and 48 uses of TV for a total of 58 holy power finishers. Considering that 25% of these finishers will produce a free DS, I can say that the average “CD” of the free DS is 300 seconds / (58/4) = 20.7 seconds. If I net 95k damage for using that DS, I am effectively gaining 95k / 20.7 = 4590 DPS. Yikes, that’s low.

Let’s go straight to the bottom of the action priority list, Judgment, which in my gear is dealing 32k damage, considering Inquisition and COE, with 34 uses in 300 seconds for an effective CD of 8.82 seconds. Considering Judgment procs a 7.4k SoT, the DPS result is (32k + 7.4k)/8.82 = 4467. So, would the free DS win the GCD clash? No, because it is not generating any Holy Power and Judgment is, which I guarantee you is enough to put it over the free DS despite having a slightly greater effective DPS value by itself. This means the best place the 4pc proc would fall is between Judgment and Templar’s Verdict at 3 Holy Power and quite possibly falls to the very bottom, relegating it to dead GCD space. Which, by the by, will become increasingly rare as growing haste values push more Art of War procs. You would NEVER use this proc during any CD phase unless there was a significant amount of targets to AE. That’s boring! I don’t want to earn my 4-set just to watch proc after proc go to waste because using it is a DPS loss!

A quick pass at the 2-set tells me it’s decent, but pretty much a straight rip-off of the T15 2pc without requiring Glyph of Mass Exorcism to contribute to AE damage. I am also growing tired of the developers working within the very confined space of trying to give Ret something interesting while making the set bonuses completely useless for Prot. Even then, Inquisition and Hammer of Wrath could be worked with instead of staying on TV / Exo tier after tier. The new set bonuses don't even complement each other like the T15 bonuses do (though they haven't bothered to make the 2pc debuff actually boost the Holy TVs). 4pc T15 is required for Retribution to deal decent raid damage in ToT, representing an 8-10% overall gain. That is going to be a painful set bonus to break, especially in favor of one as weak as what is currently on the PTR.

Maybe T17 will be good. *Yawn*
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90 Human Rogue
2445
Yes its crappy. I really don't wanna spam aoe abilities in my single target rotation + as it was said about it reminds t10.
Give as a % strength proc pls =)
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100 Human Paladin
17760
06/11/2013 11:15 PMPosted by Hankscorpio
So, my question: Would that proc be worth using?

Haha. No. Maybe? There are two corollary issues: "will giving up 4-piece T15 be worth gaining 4-piece T16, and, "where will a free DS fit into our rotation." Neither of these makes the set bonus look promising.

Let's think about this for single target:

Divine Storm deals 100% holy weapon damage plus mastery and does not proc Seal of Truth / Censure. Assuming 45k average weapon damage plus 40% mastery, that equals approximately 95k damage after Inquisition and any CoE effects.

Remember that Ret’s priority system is based on damage done coupled with the effective ability CD. Looking at a 300 second (5 minute) boss fight in SimC (50k iterations) using Sanc Wrath, I get 10 uses of Inquisition and 48 uses of TV for a total of 58 holy power finishers. Considering that 25% of these finishers will produce a free DS, I can say that the average “CD” of the free DS is 300 seconds / (58/4) = 20.7 seconds. If I net 95k damage for using that DS, I am effectively gaining 95k / 20.7 = 4590 DPS. Yikes, that’s low.

Let’s go straight to the bottom of the action priority list, Judgment, which in my gear is dealing 32k damage, considering Inquisition and COE, with 34 uses in 300 seconds for an effective CD of 8.82 seconds. Considering Judgment procs a 7.4k SoT, the DPS result is (32k + 7.4k)/8.82 = 4467. So, would the free DS win the GCD clash? No, because it is not generating any Holy Power and Judgment is, which I guarantee you is enough to put it over the free DS despite having a slightly greater effective DPS value by itself. This means the best place the 4pc proc would fall is between Judgment and Templar’s Verdict at 3 Holy Power and quite possibly falls to the very bottom, relegating it to dead GCD space. Which, by the by, will become increasingly rare as growing haste values push more Art of War procs. You would NEVER use this proc during any CD phase unless there was a significant amount of targets to AE. That’s boring! I don’t want to earn my 4-set just to watch proc after proc go to waste because using it is a DPS loss!

A quick pass at the 2-set tells me it’s decent, but pretty much a straight rip-off of the T15 2pc without requiring Glyph of Mass Exorcism to contribute to AE damage. I am also growing tired of the developers working within the very confined space of trying to give Ret something interesting while making the set bonuses completely useless for Prot. Even then, Inquisition and Hammer of Wrath could be worked with instead of staying on TV / Exo tier after tier. The new set bonuses don't even complement each other like the T15 bonuses do (though they haven't bothered to make the 2pc debuff actually boost the Holy TVs). 4pc T15 is required for Retribution to deal decent raid damage in ToT, representing an 8-10% overall gain. That is going to be a painful set bonus to break, especially in favor of one as weak as what is currently on the PTR.

Maybe T17 will be good. *Yawn*


Thank you for confirming my thoughts with some maths!

Yes its crappy. I really don't wanna spam aoe abilities in my single target rotation + as it was said about it reminds t10.
Give as a % strength proc pls =)


Personally I would love to have a Divine Storm proc, or some other proc that makes me change up my rotation slightly. The ret rotation could use a little bit more excitement here and there in my opinion. I actually loved the T10 4 piece for that reason. It was still smash whatever came off CD, but sometimes DS cooldown would reset and you would have to be like ooo shiny!
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90 Human Rogue
2445
Personally I would love to have a Divine Storm proc, or some other proc that makes me change up my rotation slightly. The ret rotation could use a little bit more excitement here and there in my opinion. I actually loved the T10 4 piece for that reason. It was still smash whatever came off CD, but sometimes DS cooldown would reset and you would have to be like ooo shiny!


It just doesn't feel right attacking with an AoE ability in a single target rotation. It is the same as giving the rogue a FoK proc, druids a Hurricane proc, mage the ice nova or w/e, you get the point.

If it has to be an ability it should be HoW just like warrior got execute. That makes more sense and it would feel better, at least for me.
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
ill be using 2/2 t15 till they nerf it. hopefully they dont.

lets look at the 3 level 75 talents:

holy avenger: using a DS during this is a dps loss.

sanctified wrath: see above

divine purpose: using a proc on a DS and not TV is a dps loss.

also, t15 4pc also makes TV do almost double the damage. kinda hard to drop that one.
Edited by Sanctifìed on 6/12/2013 12:35 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
19345
Personally I would love to have a Divine Storm proc, or some other proc that makes me change up my rotation slightly. The ret rotation could use a little bit more excitement here and there in my opinion. I actually loved the T10 4 piece for that reason. It was still smash whatever came off CD, but sometimes DS cooldown would reset and you would have to be like ooo shiny!

I loved the T10 proc, but that was back when DS was balanced as a single target ability that also cleaved very well. It was also before the Holy Power system, which demands that all HP generators are on CD as much as possible. The T16 proc chance is too low (T10 was 40% on autoattack, not 25% on finisher) and to boot, it doesn't generate HP.

T15 gave us a set bonus that boosts our single target DPS at the expense of AE DPS, that is, at 2 targets I still use TV instead of switching to DS like I would without the set bonus. It looks like they're trying to give us a set bonus that boosts AE DPS at the expense of single target, but that feels lame since single target situations are so much more common than AE, especially clumped, sustained AE that DS requires.

I see this leading us to keeping two gear sets, one with min-maxed set pieces for single target and one with 4pc T16 for heavy AE fights. This is not good design in my opinion.
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100 Draenei Paladin
18665
DS on single target deals roughly equivalent (though typically inferior) damage to HoW and Exo. But doesn't generate HP for TV. It'll have use for AoE I guess. But I'd be surprised if it made any sort of impact on our single target rotation.

And that's just fine with me. DS is not in the same place it was back in tier 10, and is nowhere near interesting enough to shoehorn it into our single target rotation. We don't even need it as a cleave, since we already switch to it on two targets.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15060
The first iteration of the t16 4p isn't just bad; every tier has a couple of unimpressive set bonuses, though this one would be competing for worst-in-expansion honors.

No, this version of the 4p is actively ignored: it's a DPS loss to use the 4p when it becomes available. It's likely a DPS loss to use the 4p proc instead of any other damaging ability, placing it into our "we hit this when there's a free GCD" slot. Quick napkin math says that we aren't likely to actually waste many procs, but any time our level 75 talent is active, the set bonus is completely ignored.

Simply adding HP generation into the DS proc would prioritize it above Judgment, and it would deal more damage per cast than Exorcism, but might not be worth the cooldown clash. It would make it worthwhile in single target fights, but might break us in multi-target fight in concert with Holy Avenger (Divine Storm from HP, then a Divine Storm from 4p proc, then another Divine Storm from HP--we'd have a 1/16 chance of five Divine Storm uses in a row, and a 1/64 of SEVEN Divine Storms in a row!).

Ret AoE is pretty blah due to the cost of switching seals, so it might not be a balance issue to see long strings of Divine Storms. This is still the kind of thing that can really make-or-break heroic progression, though.

It's amazing for cleaving, of course, so there is that. If every single fight in the tier involves constant cleaving, then we're going to have a great time.
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90 Human Paladin
19345
Ret AoE is pretty blah due to the cost of switching seals, so it might not be a balance issue to see long strings of Divine Storms. This is still the kind of thing that can really make-or-break heroic progression, though.

Agreed that Ret AE damage could use some love, but if it comes directly at the cost of gearing for single target DPS, we will at least be looking for a single target gear set and an AE gear set if min-maxing is your thing. Even then, it is a question of "is there enough AE in this fight to warrant using the set bonus or should I stick with my single target set?"

Let's think about set bonuses after 3.0, when Ret became a 'supported' DPS spec--every tier except for T8 and T9 had a bonus that really impacted the way you play (though to be fair, T9 was when they were experimenting with "DoTs can now crit" mechanics, so I enjoyed it). Each tier had its 'meh' bonuses, the obligatory "here's a 2-3% DPS increase," but for T16, I haven't seen a tier bonus that looked so uninteresting since T5.

It would make it worthwhile in single target fights, but might break us in multi-target fight in concert with Holy Avenger (Divine Storm from HP, then a Divine Storm from 4p proc, then another Divine Storm from HP--we'd have a 1/16 chance of five Divine Storm uses in a row, and a 1/64 of SEVEN Divine Storms in a row!).

I'm actually worried about the AE threat in those situations, would probably have to delay DPS just to let the tanks keep aggro on adds (already a problem on Tortos bats).

Has anyone tested Divine Purpose with 4pc T16 yet? The wording of the talent makes me think they would not work together (since the free DS doesn't 'consume' Holy Power), but DS can chain proc off of itself without, which means the procs probably work off the abilities themselves and 4pc T16 could be rather...interesting if it worked with DP. I'm against this in principle because it would shoehorn us into the DP talent when using 4pc T16, piling RNG on top of RNG to be useful.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
9535
I wouldn't mind seeing the proc altered a bit. Either make the procc'd divine storm generate a holy power, give it a damage boost, or both.
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90 Human Paladin
0
#1 Still too early to tell and things may change.

#2 It could be good to have free DS procs if there's a lot of AOE in the new dungeon.

#3 Wouldn't surprise me if T15 4 set was given to Ret in 5.4.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16735
Well, obviously this iteration of the tier 16 4 pc. bonus is pretty awful for single target. The proc would definitely come last in our priority list, and given tier 16 levels of haste that means you would almost never use it. I'm pretty sure they'll change it though - having the "bonus" be a proc that you would only use if absolutely everything else is on CD is pretty much the opposite of fun.

But it's easy to fix. They could do something like they proposed this tier, with the freebie DS also dropping extra damage on the primary target. Or have it generate 2 holy power. Or have it increase your crit chance by x% for x seconds. Or all kinds of things.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11345
I actually had a full-on, daylong nostalgia attack when I saw this set bonus and was reminded of the old T10 set bonus.

Then I remembered how far Divine Storm has fallen since its glory days. Alas. It doesn't seem all that great on first glance - it's sometimes hard to remember that Divine Storm hits for holy damage again since it takes Holy Power away from the all-important Templar's Verdict.

It's fun to feel like you're sometimes swinging an 18-wheeler full of cement and rebar with the current 4-piece, too, which makes this set bonus feel all the more 'bleh'. Still, if I recall, this set bonus or something like it was originally floated as the T15 set bonus and then scrapped, no?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13075
I'm pretty positive I read a blue post stating that all the set bonuses are currently place-holders and that none of them will be going live. They stated a lot of the stuff in the ptr at this point are either place holders or first versions of ideas. So I wouldn't expect the set bonuses at least to remain the same later into the ptr.
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100 Human Paladin
17760
Updated to include the new iteration of the set piece:

Holy Power consumers have a 25% chance to make your next Divine Storm free,and deal 50% more damage.


Would this still push it ahead of the other abilities considering it still does not generate Holy Power? Question being, can someone math out whether the average holy power lost from using this is still an increase in DPS? Divine Storm still beat out all of the other abilities in damage before it was buffed, but the problem was that the Holy Power lost still made it a loss. Does this change that?
Edited by Perseus on 6/20/2013 3:37 PM PDT
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
divine storm doesnt generate holy power. which makes it a no-go for holy avenger. also, it isnt good for sanctified wrath either. as for divine purpose, this set bonus might make you waste your proc on DS rather than TV.

not good. needs a redesign. going to be hard to convince people to drop t15 4pc.
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100 Human Paladin
11195
With a 50% bonus, DS hits for as much as TV, and with a 25% chance to proc from finishers, it's essentially a Divine Purpose proc. I *think* this means it should be worth prioritizing over TV but not over builders, but I'm not certain of that. I intend to get the 5.4 simcraft set up and compare some priorities later today.
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