5.4 Ret 4-Piece

90 Human Paladin
17020
With a 50% bonus, DS hits for as much as TV, and with a 25% chance to proc from finishers, it's essentially a Divine Purpose proc. I *think* this means it should be worth prioritizing over TV but not over builders, but I'm not certain of that. I intend to get the 5.4 simcraft set up and compare some priorities later today.


Hmm if it was kind of like a divine purpose proc then it would be prioritized over builders. It would be negligible so save it until you capped on holy power because you'd still have to use the proc, then a TV, then builders. Resulting in the same GCD space taken up but just at a different time.

PTR servers are down at the moment so I can't test, but I wanted to make sure it hits as hard as a TV in its current form. It's 150% weapon damage as holy with the buff, yes? Boosted 30% by Inquisition and also ignoring armor... hmm.

They may have to nerf the t15 4pc because I still think that one is superior.

But even after all of that, the set piece would be awkward when sanctified wrath or holy avenger is up. I don't think you would even use it during those times.
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90 Human Paladin
10760
If you use non-free TVs during cooldowns, I'm not sure why you'd avoid using a free DS that is the equivalent of a TV.
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90 Human Paladin
17020
I was going to say, "because hammer of wrath," but apparently it does not do as much damage as I thought.

Testing out Sanctified Wrath with it, the DS procs could actually be fit in pretty nicely there. HA felt a bit weird when DS proc'd, but I suppose it's still worth it to use it there anyway.

For Divine Purpose, you're probably going to want to set up a weak aura for when the set piece procs so you can tell if the set piece AND a divine purpose proc are up at the same time. Reason being, the set bonus DS will not consume the divine purpose proc, but since both are lit up you may think it's just a divine purpose proc and then use TV and then perhaps proc another set bonus and waste the proc you had before.

EDIT: Not sure if that actually works both ways. If the DS proc can proc Divine Purpose, then you potentially could be wasting a proc either way. Really would just come down to TV on single target DS on cleave, since I think DS still might hit for slightly... slightly less than TV.

I'm still not sure if it's better than the t15 4pc, though.
Edited by Perseus on 6/21/2013 6:03 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10760
I'm still not sure if it's better than the t15 4pc, though.

I'm pretty confident it isn't better. Even assuming you could use every proc perfectly and wouldn't have to delay any other abilities, the bonus DS is only slightly more damage than a t15 4p proc, and it procs much less often.
Now, t15 4p is very strong for a set bonus, so I'm not sure it's a good measuring stick. But still, the current incarnation does probably need more tuning.

Simming the set bonus (in my own gear), it appears to be optimal to prioritize 4p DS > TV3, although the difference compared to prioritizing it dead last is very small. Since the margin is small and my gear isn't actually t16, it's very possible that different gear setups would prioritize it differently. In any case, it looks to be 2% or less, which is smallish for a 4p bonus.
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90 Human Paladin
12585
On the flip side, this Set bonus if it goes through as is will be INCREDIBLE for AoE damage.

How much do we know of the boss encounters in SoO? Are there enough bosses where a huge bonus to AoE damage would be a good thing?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15425
Should point out that the better our haste gets, the worse this tier bonus gets.

That's not great design, imo.
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90 Human Paladin
10760
06/23/2013 01:16 AMPosted by Carmageddon
Should point out that the better our haste gets, the worse this tier bonus gets.

That's only true past 50%, although that should be reachable next tier. Below 50%, haste accelerates GCDs by the same amount it accelerates cooldowns, so the rotation isn't actually filling up, the gaps are just smaller (but proportionally more frequent).
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
13915
And having a soft cap of 50% haste is not really that restrictive.
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90 Human Paladin
19345
That's only true past 50%, although that should be reachable next tier. Below 50%, haste accelerates GCDs by the same amount it accelerates cooldowns, so the rotation isn't actually filling up, the gaps are just smaller (but proportionally more frequent).

True, but you're neglecting that more haste = more Art of War procs, which means that an increasing number of GCDs will be spent on Exorcism instead of waiting. With high enough haste values, dead GCD space will become increasingly rare, even below 50% values.

If you use non-free TVs during cooldowns, I'm not sure why you'd avoid using a free DS that is the equivalent of a TV.

Because using that TV makes room for more Holy Power so that you can go back to using Holy Power generating attacks. Also, don't forget that TV procs Seal of Truth and DS does not. If you were to spec Divine Purpose, you don't use the free TV until all of your generators are on CD without going so long as to lose the proc. The free DS provided by the set bonus occupies an entire GCD without generating or consuming Holy Power, so it's really only worth casting during waiting periods. It would have to hit harder than +50% to make it worth delaying generation attacks by a full GCD.

I hope they just redesign the set bonus instead of trying to find a number that makes the DS worth casting on single target encounters and being broken on AE fights. I'm also curious to know how Divine Purpose interacts with the set bonus (i.e. can using a DP proc the bonus and will using the bonus proc a DP?).
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90 Human Paladin
10760
07/09/2013 11:03 PMPosted by Hankscorpio
True, but you're neglecting that more haste = more Art of War procs, which means that an increasing number of GCDs will be spent on Exorcism instead of waiting. With high enough haste values, dead GCD space will become increasingly rare, even below 50% values.

No, I'm including that. Art of War procs increase with haste at the same rate as everything else: X% haste means X% more CS, X% more TV, X% more Art of War procs, X% more Judgement, etc - that is, X% more available actions. And X% more GCDs to use them all in. Unless something scales above-linearly with haste (and nothing Ret has does that), there's no way around this, and anything that doesn't scale with haste (like our level 90 talents) actually goes the opposite way, leaving *more* empty space as haste increases.

This is easily observable in e.g. Simcraft, where waiting time stays pretty constant at ~7% across vastly different levels of haste.
If you use non-free TVs during cooldowns, I'm not sure why you'd avoid using a free DS that is the equivalent of a TV.

Because using that TV makes room for more Holy Power so that you can go back to using Holy Power generating attacks.

Using a TV-equivalent DS and wasting three Holy Power over the cap is just as wasteful as using a TV, building three more Holy Power, and leaving a DS proc unused: either way, you're missing out on one full TV's worth of damage (plus or minus whatever small delta between a TV and a boosted DS).

But at this point, calculations or sims are probably more useful than words; post #24 had some preliminary results on optimal prioritization, but I haven't explored further since then.
I hope they just redesign the set bonus instead of trying to find a number that makes the DS worth casting on single target encounters and being broken on AE fights. I'm also curious to know how Divine Purpose interacts with the set bonus (i.e. can using a DP proc the bonus and will using the bonus proc a DP?).

I'm with you there. The more I've thought about this bonus, the less I like it.

Theck tested the interaction with DP a while ago, it can indeed proc DP and procs from DP, although DS will consume *both* procs if you let it:
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t130889-ret_5_3_mop_retribution_concordance_retcon_who_ordered_mogugai_panda/p46/#post2303957
Edited by Ravicana on 7/10/2013 1:54 AM PDT
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