Ret pally 4 set 5.4 Beta notes

90 Human Paladin
13315
Personally, I think the new 4pc is HORRIBLE. The ONLY way it would be worth it is if the proc ALSO made Divine Storm come off of GCD. In no way shape or form, even if the next tier is AoE heavy, will that proc be worth blowing a GCD on. If the next tier is AoE heavy, there will be at least half of the fights that are single target fights, effectively making it useless half of the time. As for the t16 2pc, it myaswell be a clone of the t15 2pc and I am okay with that. They've been trying to shove a Divine Storm proc down our throats this entire expac. Hopefully it will get changed to be on par with the other classes 4pc bonuses.
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
Remember, you can't base the usefulness of the set bonus on current content; T16 may end up AoE heavy.

That said, it is still rather unappealing. I was pleased with it at first glance, but I've looked a little deeper and changed my mind. With HA and DP - especially DP - there seems to be the strong probability of wasting procs


I doubt a ret set bonus based around aoe is any real indication of how aoe heavy the tier will be. Blizz does sometimes make set bonuses for a tier that fill a specific role for the tier they will be used in, but usually it is given to all relevant specs of that role. (Best example in recent memory being the tank 4pcs in DS.) I don't see any correlation across set bonuses that would scream "aoe tier." Most seem to deal with giving some free resources or extra attacks, it just so happens that ours is next to useless on a fight without aoe.
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90 Human Paladin
13315
It will go one of three ways:

1. They will change it, they tried to do something similar this tier with the 4pc. People complained until it was changed to the current (awesome) bonus.

2. They will keep it to offset our current high end gear dmg numbers. Giving us a slight bonus on very specific fights, but overall being negligible. Remember they're lowering the CD of our Divine King to 3mins. Which that in itself, imo, its equal to a 4pc set bonus. And if that WAS a 4pc Bonus, then I'd be very happy with it.

3. They will keep it and put the DS proc off the GCD giving us an option for free dmg that doesn't screw with our already GCD reliant rotation.

Personally, if the bonus stays AS IS (although its so early right now and I haven't seen the theorycrafting of it) I will probably not build to 4pc. A lot of off set pieces are better itemized anyways. Although, I believe bonuses for every class need to be enticing enough for you to want to build to a 4pc and pass up better itemized off pieces.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10225
Anyone else think the 2set is kinda meh too?

It's a 5% damage buff with ~50% uptime, making it very closely comparable to the t15 2p, which is a 6% buff to 2/3 of our damage with ~70% uptime. In other words, the t16 2p is a 2-3% damage buff, which is normal-to-good as set bonuses go.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13750
06/12/2013 08:36 PMPosted by Ravicana
Anyone else think the 2set is kinda meh too?

It's a 5% damage buff with ~50% uptime


Where are you getting the 50% uptime figure from? The set bonus reads as "When Art of War activates," which should mean the bonus only benefits us when AoW procs, not when Exo is cast. And with AoW on a static 20% chance to proc, I'd think the bonus' uptime would be more in that ballpark.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10225
Two separate napkin-math approximations roughly agree, which makes me reasonably confident I'm in the right ballpark:

1) Given ~50% melee attack speed bonus (this is 36% haste before raid buff, which is actually pretty conservative for t16 gear), and a speed 3.6 weapon, you get a swing speed of 2.4. A 20% proc chance (one in five) means you'll average one Art of War proc per 12 seconds, with a 6 second duration. So the very simplistic estimate is 50%; slightly less than that if you account for the proc sometimes overwriting and partially wasting its duration.

2) I pulled up one of my recent Simcraft results, and it averaged 35 AoW procs in a 450-second fight. 35 procs at 6 seconds each would be 210s , which is a little under 50%. Adjust slightly downwards for overwrites, slightly upwards for t16 haste levels, end up still at or a little under 50%.

This is napkin math, so 40% or whatever wouldn't surprise me, but I don't think 20% uptime is a good estimate.
Edited by Ravicana on 6/12/2013 9:29 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
15080
I was thinking that the 4 piece bonus would behave like the current 4 piece one, a "buff" that is stored until it goes away.

Thus my thought would be that you could only use this "free" DS if you had 3 holy power or more available.

However I currently have 39% haste unbuffed, I notice very little downtime in rotations because of this amount of haste.

So next tier with items probs ranging from 540-560, normal to heroic I would assume I would hit at least 41% if not more, lessening the chances that I would use a free DS

If it built holy power as well..... worth it

Please think of a different bonus blizz, loving the changes of 5.3 & 5.4 though, more sustained is good!
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90 Human Paladin
13315
Where are you getting the 50% uptime figure from? The set bonus reads as "When Art of War activates," which should mean the bonus only benefits us when AoW procs, not when Exo is cast. And with AoW on a static 20% chance to proc, I'd think the bonus' uptime would be more in that ballpark.


I can safely say at over 80% of my Exorcisms are AoW procs. Probably even higher than that. The t16 2pc is very similar to the t15 2pc. In all actuality probably better. Because it will increase all dmg you deal, instead of just holy dmg.
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90 Human Paladin
13315
I was thinking that the 4 piece bonus would behave like the current 4 piece one, a "buff" that is stored until it goes away.


Still would consume a GCD and how rarely DS is used coupled with the high proc chance of the ability. Total shiit.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8905
I'm pretty sure the DS proc will be off the GCD. Otherwise as others have said, there's little or no reason to ever waste a GCD to use it on our single target rotation. It's possible with our other buffs on the PTR for 5.4 that blizz decided they wanted to give us a subpar 4 pc bonus to offset it and/or perhaps Siege of Orgrimmar will include a lot of AoE fights.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15790
Obviously as it stands this set bonus is basically worthless in single target situations, and not even that great in many AoE situations.

But there's no way it goes live as a proc that you would only ever use to fill dead space in your rotation, because that would be frustrating and totally unfun.

So imagine how to make it work. What if the procced DS also called down a powerful blast of holy energy on your primary target (basically, what they proposed last time around)? Or what if the procced DS also generated 2 charges of holy power?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10280
This 4 set is complete crap and it will not be worth using. It is complete crap if you are fully geared. Using the DS Proc will actually result into a dps loss because every global matters. It prolly will make it to live but be happy. Even if ret doesnt get these amazing buffs. It is in a very good place as of right now.

I went from being in the middle of the pack to the best single target dps in my group. And I am in a group with insanely talented players in there class. Please don't whine about crappy 4 sets when we risk losing other buffs that are coming our way. There are many tiers where certain classes get crappy tier sets. We will just have to get more offset pieces. Which isn't such a bad thing as tier itemization is 90% of the time garbage. Can someone say more haste???
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10280
For the record we use divine storm enough as is. Who the heck misses it in the rotation. Our spec is the funnest and best it has ever been. <-- Top dps ret paladin for over 8 years
Edited by Capernaum on 6/15/2013 3:06 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15790
06/15/2013 03:04 AMPosted by Capernaum
It prolly will make it to live but be happy.


I very much doubt it. It'll be tweaked to be worth using.
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95 Draenei Paladin
13705
People seem to be justifying the awfulness that is the 2p and 4p with our so called "buffs" in inquisition and guardian. By all means inquisition is a buff and a much needed one in my opinion, but the guardian is a slight buff if one at all (if you didn't notice the stacks of guardian maxes out at 12 and not 20, if you do the math 20 stacks/5 min cd= 4 stacks per minute and 12 stacks/3 min cd=4 stacks per minute). Yes I that is just a calculation so you can argue that a smaller cd means you might be able to use it more often, that's why I said guardian is a small buff if one at all.

This being said it can be argued that the reason ret is strong right now is because of the t15 2p and 4p not only does it make TV hit for more it makes our mastery hit for more, whereas the t16 2p is unreliable and the 4p doesn't have a place since ret is fast approaching no down time at 15k haste and above. And with the new tier coming out it means we will have even less down time since we will have even more haste. Something has to give here or rets like myself who are rather geared are going to just hold onto t15 or roll two 2p.
Edited by Shikary on 6/22/2013 7:37 PM PDT
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95 Draenei Paladin
13705
Just tested a little bit on the ptr with the t16 2p and 4p and here are the results I got:

Single target dps on a target dummy that was by itself (aka no aoe off of the DS, just the one hit from it). I used DS anytime it activated from the 4p regardless whether or not I had an HP generating ability rdy to use, except during Avenging Wrath.
  • In total I did 71,026,112 dmg over 7 minutes and 13 secs= roughly 163.4k dps
  • Overall I used 20 DS procs and did 2,216,572 dmg= roughly 3.3% of my total dmg
  • To give you an idea this is roughly the same dmg as Execution sentence used 7 times in that sample
  • Average DS non crit was a little over 91k, and average DS crit was a little under 190k
  • However that is not all because DS affects our mastery too. My mastery was at 45.10% times the DS dmg= roughly an additional 999,673 dmg
  • A grand total of 3,216,245 dmg from "free" DS and the mastery from it
  • In this fight I did 76 TVs, 87 Crusaders, 58 Judgments, and 50 Exos
  • Single target dps on the exact same target dummy but this time I DID NOT USE DS and did my normal rotation and here are the numbers:
  • I did 69,421,186 dmg over 7 minutes and 16 secs= roughly 158.9k dps
  • I did overall 79 TVs, 85 Crusaders, 65 Judgments, and 53 Exos
  • Overall:
  • Yes the t16 4p seems to be a single target dmg increase but it is a whopping 2.31% dmg increase
  • My thoughts:
  • I still hate this 4p because if it was not for our mastery the dmg would have been almost identical, so basically all in all it seems like if t16 ret stays the same we will have a very minor 4p at best. That is if ppl actually take the t16 4p instead of keeping the very powerful t15 or possibly doubling up on t15 and t16 2p together.
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    100 Blood Elf Paladin
    17800
    Cool. So I'm not the only one on this bandwagon of T16 4pc hate? I love you all. This 4pc for us is terribad.

    I mean, DS has changed and people are going to have to settle for that. They tried to shove DS into our T15 4pc and saw that it wasnt going to happen. If you miss the visual, request a glyph to be made so that TV and DS switch visuals or something. But trying to shove an aoe ability down the throats of a single target class is utterly stupid.
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    90 Human Paladin
    11645
    Please blizzard fix this tier set I understand you increased the damage but that's not going to help. This entire tier set needs to be re done completely this isn't a damage increase what so ever. You have taken great strides into making ret better and our dps much higher and comparable to other dps and now you slap us with this tier set which is completely useless for us. This tier set will be ignored and no ret who knows what there doing will take this set over the previous set bonus last tier.

    Blizzard please do not ignore this issue with this tier set divine storm has no place in our aoe rotation and we are not an aoe spec do not try to fix a spec that is not broken.
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    97 Human Paladin
    13655
    I've played ret for years now. I've seen many stupid ideas blizz has shoved down our throats. However, with the buff to Inquisition now lasting double the time used at 3 stacks (now 30 sec with 5.4 1 min). the change to GoA isn't a nerf nor a buff just now use it every third AW. Now on to the set bonus with the proc on DS. In ICC we had to use this a lot due to trash with bosses. So my take is these fights are going to have some trash involved which will give us higher dps of course. However, if its going to have a majority of single target fights here is a good idea to take in blizz. Instead of having it do a bass 100% weapon damage, could try having it do say 200% to a single target, but if there is more then 5 adds in say 8 yards make it spread down to 100% to the 5 adds. Or something along those lines. Just an idea to through in to the pot. Really don't want to change classes just to have a raid spot. Ret is slowly dying off due to the lack of good dps that we can sustain in a fight. But take what I said as you want. I have faith if we do see our class falling off that they will find a way to make up for it.
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    90 Human Paladin
    14000
    Anafielle did some SimC testing with the recent update to 530-5 and posted it to the EJ forums, and her results show that the 4pc not only does a decent amount of damage (about 3.5% on single-target) but that it slots pretty highly in our rotation:

    Top priority: 225073.1
    Top priority aside from ES and Inq reapp: 225125.6
    Top priority aside from ES, Inq reapp, TV@5: 225082.2
    Below TV @ 5 & HoW: 225829.4
    Below Exo: 225653.7
    Below Exo & CS: 224405.1
    Below Exo & CS & Judge: 224426.5
    Bottom: 223541.7
    Unused: 218049.9

    Source: http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t130889-ret_5_3_mop_retribution_concordance_retcon_who_ordered_mogugai_panda/p49/#post2313726
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