Can't wait to test out these Mage changes!!!

90 Draenei Shaman
4790
06/19/2013 09:44 AMPosted by Zomgdps
AB4 (AM)2 ABr is the single best cycle for Arcane from a DPS/DPM and MPS standpoint.

Yes indeed, and that gameplay, where you build up 4 charges of a debuff then drain it off with barrage, is nothing like fire or frost.
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Well it works for holy because it has a very diverse toolkit. Some spells only get cast a couple of times in a fight (like divine hymn) but are incredibly strong. It's a very strategic spec, it's not about spamming spells or whatever, it's about picking the right spell for the right time and being willing to not cast much at all during quiet times. Then you bust out the big boys during heavy raid damage. If you wasted those bad boys at the wrong time, it could mean a wipe.

Maintainance healing is done by others. Disc for example. That's a pretty spammy healer...and one that can ignore mana, as a matter of fact.

With arcane, the tool kit is extremely limited and can't bear the traffic of true mana management.
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90 Human Mage
12765
06/19/2013 11:00 AMPosted by Slant
AB4 (AM)2 ABr is the single best cycle for Arcane from a DPS/DPM and MPS standpoint.

Yes indeed, and that gameplay, where you build up 4 charges of a debuff then drain it off with barrage, is nothing like fire or frost.


Not really, arcane clearing stacks has about the same priority as fire using IB when they have heating up but not hot streak.

Basic arcane:
Bomb > AM (with 2 procs) > ABar (only with 4 stacks) > AM (with 4 stack AB) > AB

Basic fire:
Bomb > Pyro (with both HS and HU) > IB (with HU but no HS) > Pyro (less than 2-3 sec left on HS but no HU) > Fireball

One watches 2 procs, the other watches a proc and a debuff count. They still play very very very similar. The only real difference is in cooldowns. Arcane's is very easy to decide when to use it (hey AP is up and I just got 2-3 trinket/weapon/meta procs!), fire has to slaughter lambs to the RNG gods to make the best use of it.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
We could say that every spec in the game is incredibly similar, because all any of them really do is make decisions based on various criteria. The only real difference is in the decisions they make and the criteria they use to make them.
Edited by Lhivera on 6/19/2013 11:52 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
We could say that every spec in the game is incredibly similar, because all any of them really do is make decisions based on various criteria. The only real difference is in the decisions they make and the criteria they use to make them.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. If you're saying that both specs have a filler and watch for procs, you're also saying that fire is similar to elemental, and shadow, etc. And they aren't entirely dissimilar, but you need to draw the distinction somewhere.
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90 Human Mage
12765
Yeah, that's what I was getting at. If you're saying that both specs have a filler and watch for procs, you're also saying that fire is similar to elemental, and shadow, etc. And they aren't entirely dissimilar, but you need to draw the distinction somewhere.


Some classes having specs that play similar to other classes's specs isn't much of a problem. Elemental Shaman playing like a fire mage is fine because if the shaman wants to try a different style, enhancement and resto are extremely different styles of play from elemental. Enhancement may still play a game of "maintain debuff, hit filler, react to proc" but there's still the melee aspect that plays extremely different from ranged.

Even warlocks, with all 3 specs being "ranged magic damage" have very distinct flavors focusing on either DoTs, demons, or nukes. Whereas all mage specs feel the same with different colored hands. Arcane had an actual mana management/burn model in Cata but people kept whining about "2 button spec" and it got turned into the bore that it is now.

TBH, I wouldn't mind at all if fire was changed to focusing on active dotting (not passive on hit effects like ignite and pyro) and felt a bit like affliction.
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1 Human Mage
0

Yes indeed, and that gameplay, where you build up 4 charges of a debuff then drain it off with barrage, is nothing like fire or frost.

It is exactly the same, you spam spell A till you get proc B, then use proc B.
The only thing that is different in Arcane is that you have to use a third spell C, every X seconds.

Is that the distinction that makes arcane special? The fact that it has an extra spell that it mindlessly uses in its completely static rotation? Please...

That is my point.
The realistic gameplay mechanics that are separating the specs are just so pointlessly tragic.

You want to see how different specs are supposed to be different, go play a Warlock. Trust me, when you do, you will see how asinine saying "Arcane is different because it must use ABr every 4 AB casts" actually is.

Do not fool yourself, pointing at a single spell and saying "I need to use this spell in a static rotation which is identical across other specs is why this spec is unique".

Its like saying "the only thing that makes Destrolocks different from Affliclocks is that Destro uses the conflag spell".
Which, as we know, is not true. Affliction and Destro are completely distinct, far above and beyond just which spells they use. That is the quality of variety I am speaking of, not a "look I have to use this spell as Arcane so I am unique".

Again, let us not fool ourselves here. Looking at the reality of the issue is the only thing that will help us help the specs and classes that need it.
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1 Human Mage
0
We could say that every spec in the game is incredibly similar, because all any of them really do is make decisions based on various criteria. The only real difference is in the decisions they make and the criteria they use to make them.

No one is saying this, and reducing peoples concise arguments to something this generic is we todd ed.

If you are saying that Arcane is as different as Fire as Destro is to Affliction, then yea.. well, why do we even bother with this guy?

There are real markable differences between the Warlock specs. There is a failing of these differences for the rogue, hunter, and mage specs.

Blizzard vehemently denied this issue for the entirety of MoP, and have now turned their stance on it for hunters and rogues.
I'm sure they will do the same for mages.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
I have 90s of all 11 classes. Obviously I'm more familiar with some specs, but I do play all of them to some extent.

The degree of difference is of course subjective. I feel arcane plays sufficiently differently from fire/frost.

But fire and frost are not sufficiently different. Same deal with assassination/subtlety, marks/BM, and arms/fury.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
I feel like if they add some new interactivity with the pet, Frost will feel sufficiently different from Fire. I'm concerned, though, about how they can go about fixing Frost's haste issues without making it feel more similar to the other two specs.
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1 Human Mage
0
The degree of difference is of course subjective. I feel arcane plays sufficiently differently from fire/frost.

"feelings" are subjective,

but factual differences are not.

If you note, in my exposition about this topic, I have never needed to appeal to my 'feelings' for anything. Instead, I'm actually describing the basic mechanics of how the spec(s) work. What the rotations are, and how the spells are used.

These require no 'feelings', just straight facts, which are not subjective. In fact, I don't think you can get any more objective there.

Now sure, if we were talking about 'feelings' I would probably say something different. Something more along the lines of "i feel these specs are completely boring all round". But I do not need to bring that up here.

But no, there is no need to just write off what someone is saying by using the "its all subjective" argument, since it misses the point somewhat.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
Shrug, we disagree. I think it is subjective, you don't.
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90 Human Mage
11890
thank the daily doing scrub of an MVP the mages have for how bad the 90 talents are and have been .......... keep up the sour fight for crap that no one wants(other than 2 people) for there mage.
Edited by Trickdurty on 6/19/2013 1:31 PM PDT
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90 Human Mage
11890
I have 90s of all 11 classes. Obviously I'm more familiar with some specs, but I do play all of them to some extent.

The degree of difference is of course subjective. I feel arcane plays sufficiently differently from fire/frost.

But fire and frost are not sufficiently different. Same deal with assassination/subtlety, marks/BM, and arms/fury.
you think arms plays like fury ? huh? have you ever tried the two?
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90 Troll Mage
9140
I love how the do nothing in game MVP is the one asking for more Frost changes and the pet specifically. Something almost everyone hates. Not asking for scailing fixes...

Oh how I wish they would take that green text away from you
Edited by Blowmeup on 6/19/2013 1:39 PM PDT
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90 Troll Mage
14100
To be fair, I was actually looking forward to Rune of Power when the trees were first announced. I thought I was going to like it a lot, and then I learned it and tried to do some dailies with it and :|.

I still think it was a poor idea for them to be level 90 talents. Not only do they scream "this is all for arcane", but that should have the kind of stuff arcane would be practicing with while you're still leveling. I actually dislike the level 45 tier for a similar reason; it's entirely themed around ice. The other 4 rows all have separate arcane, fire or ice options.

Unless the next expansion adds a 7th row and makes it fire-only, but that would be just as ugly.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
you think arms plays like fury ? huh? have you ever tried the two?

Yes, like I said, I have 90s of all classes. The warrior is actually one of my more played alts. Basically,

Rage generator: Bloodthirst / Mortal strike
Main damage ability procced from rage generator: Raging Blow / Overpower
Random procced ability, when no proc active also used to drain extra rage: Wild Strike / Slam
Drain extra rage: Heroic Strike / Heroic Strike
High priority ability: Colossus Smash / Colossus Smash

Not to imply they're identical; they have different stat priorities, and the procs work a bit differently, and fury cares about crit much more, and saves up resources for the collossus smash window, and so on and so forth. But the core gameplay, the buttons you actually push, is very similar.
Edited by Slant on 6/19/2013 1:47 PM PDT
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
06/19/2013 01:41 PMPosted by Sarm
To be fair, I was actually looking forward to Rune of Power when the trees were first announced. I thought I was going to like it a lot, and then I learned it and tried to do some dailies with it and :|.


Huh. Really? I've been using it exclusively since I hit 90, and questing is the last place I would expect someone to find it unpleasant. To each his/her own, though.

Thematically, I don't think it's a problematic tier (in fact, it's exactly what we suggested when the first version of the talents were made public and their theme support was a hot mess — an enhancement of a spell that may be in the Arcane school, but is hardly considered part of an Arcane theme since every spec has been using it since even before I was removed from the Arcane talent tree.) I'll agree that it's unfortunate that people couldn't get used to them before hitting 90.

Regardless, we know they plan to make some adjustments to the tier; we'll see what happens when the time comes.

I've always agreed that the L45 talents are problematic and should offer more thematic options; I think the devs felt it was more important to ensure that everyone had an additional spell to support Shatter and Deep Freeze, but I don't agree.
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90 Human Mage
11890
06/19/2013 01:45 PMPosted by Slant
you think arms plays like fury ? huh? have you ever tried the two?

Yes, like I said, I have 90s of all classes. The warrior is actually one of my more played alts. Basically,

Rage generator: Bloodthirst / Mortal strike
Main damage ability procced from rage generator: Raging Blow / Overpower
Random procced ability, when no proc active also used to drain extra rage: Wild Strike / Slam
Drain extra rage: Heroic Strike / Heroic Strike
High priority ability: Colossus Smash / Colossus Smash

Not to imply they're identical; they have different stat priorities, and the procs work a bit differently, and fury cares about crit much more, and saves up resources for the collossus smash window, and so on and so forth. But the core gameplay, the buttons you actually push, is very similar.
anyone can look at abilities in a vacuum.....when you look at what is behind the broad brush statement you made regarding the two ,the fact is it doesnt pan out that way because the abilities and how they are used and at what times and certain windows are very much different the actual "play" is very much different. i just know from raiding experience that it is very easy to foul up what could have been an awesome CS window because of raid mechanics the diff in dps of a skilled fury war VS an unskilled one is huge.... unlike arms that should atleast give you and idea that they do not play the same ..... no matter if they add 300 more specs for a warrior if the main resource they use is rage they will all need a rage generating ability... anyway back to mages and how they got the shaft on talents and feeling watered down
Edited by Trickdurty on 6/19/2013 2:10 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
I didn't look at them in a vacuum; I have a 90 warrior and actually play him. I disagree with you.
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