5.4 Patch notes for Mages

90 Undead Mage
7070
I do hope they do something with this, one of the drawbacks of a mage is supposed to be high mana cost powers and mana management
Says who? For arcane sure. I don't see why fire and frost need to worry about it. Besides, the only mana management mechanic we had before was just switching to mage armor when you got low, then switching back to whatever suited you if your mana was high. It wasn't an interesting design in the least. Not for fire or frost.
It's not fun being at full mana all the time in PvP, it's brainless.
Completely disagree. Mana isn't like rage or energy. If you run hard out of it, you don't just wait a few seconds or hit a few different abilities to build it back up. You're done, games over. This is a fine mechanic for healers, not for dps. Having some dps essentially running with a time limit and others with an infinite energy pool doesn't make sense.
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90 Orc Mage
12560
06/13/2013 06:40 AMPosted by Esmee
I do hope they do something with this, one of the drawbacks of a mage is supposed to be high mana cost powers and mana management
Says who? For arcane sure. I don't see why fire and frost need to worry about it. Besides, the only mana management mechanic we had before was just switching to mage armor when you got low, then switching back to whatever suited you if your mana was high. It wasn't an interesting design in the least. Not for fire or frost.
It's not fun being at full mana all the time in PvP, it's brainless.
Completely disagree. Mana isn't like rage or energy. If you run hard out of it, you don't just wait a few seconds or hit a few different abilities to build it back up. You're done, games over. This is a fine mechanic for healers, not for dps. Having some dps essentially running with a time limit and others with an infinite energy pool doesn't make sense.


Yes mage armor was our only mana management mechanic. Mana gem and evocation are not mana management mechanics at all, they just have cool pictures. The point of a mana bar is the lose mana, that is a drawback. Of course we would have ways to restore it. Only having one move actually put a dent in our mana pool(spell steal) is horrible design. On the topic of range and energy, both of those have downtime. You will shortly be out of energy/rage at times in PvP, reducing your damage. With our current mana regen system if a mage is not using spell steal he will be at near full mana for hours. If we actually had to sacrifice mana for damage buffs in the 90 tree you would have to choose between steady damage or high damage at the cost of mana.

To quote the original WoW game manual I just so happen to have.
"Mages have little capacity to defend themselves if they run out of mana. They have weak combat skills and low health. However mages can summon food and drink to replenish their health and mana, and at much higher levels, they can create mana stones that can instantly restore mana, extending their effectiveness in combat."
Edited by Monocle on 6/13/2013 7:11 AM PDT
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90 Undead Mage
7070
Ok I obviously failed to communicate my point.
Of course we would have ways to restore it
This was my point. Frost has never had a conservative rotation vs a high burst, high mana cost rotation. Between mana gem, evocation and mage armor since wrath we just never had to worry about mana. In vanilla and tbc when mage armor didn't give huge increases to mana regen like it did in wrath and cata, frost simply had a time limit. If you were oom, you had to wait on the cds of the gem or evo before you could do anything. Fire had somewhat of a conserve rotation where you would weave in scorches instead of fireballs here and there to conserve mana. But even then, once you had a high enough gear level in the same tier that was no longer a concern.

The only spec that was designed around having high burst, high cost, vs low sustained low cost was and has been Arcane. Hence why the mastery is the way it is. If thats the play style you enjoy and prefer, then play arcane. Frost has never fit that role, and fire has only minimally fit that role in select times in WoW's history.

I've been playing arena as frost since S1. In tbc, we simply had a time limit. If we went oom, that was it. We either survived till evo or mana gem was off cd, or managed to get a drink or we were done. We didn't have a conservative rotation to fall back on, or to use in order to last longer. Frost's conservative rotation was simply to cast less. It was poor design. No class should have a hard time limit like that. From Wrath on, mana was never an issue. The only thing it did was force me out of frost armor to switch to mage from time to time.
To quote the original WoW game manual I just so happen to have.
and in Vanilla WoW spending countless hours killing bears, not doing quests just killing bears, in order to gain rep was also a part of the games design. You can't compare Vanilla WoW to today. They're completely different games. Not all design intents were perfect back then. A game needs to evolve.
06/13/2013 07:01 AMPosted by Monocle
You will shortly be out of energy/rage at times in PvP, reducing your damage.
Yes. Those energy pools are designed specifically to reduce how many backstabs or ambushes for example you can do in a row or in a given dance. Those abilities have no cd and they're instant cast. Their limiting factor is energy. Mages too have limiting factors. Frostbolts damage for example is terrible, but once its put into a frozen target its high burst damage. But you can't do high damage 3-4-5 globals in a row though. For one it has to be cast (which has all sorts of limitations added to that fact alone), and at most we can do that high yield frostbolt only two casts in a row since the target has to be frozen. Which breaks after the damage, and each freeze mechanic has a cd associated with it. Our procs add to those limits on high vs low damage of icelance and FFB as well. Just because mana doesn't limit us, doesn't mean we don't have limits in place.
If we actually had to sacrifice mana for damage buffs in the 90 tree you would have to choose between steady damage or high damage at the cost of mana.
I can understand this. But what you're now talking about is a massive overhaul of fire and frosts design. They'd have to develop mana conservative rotations vs high cost high damage rotations. Thematically, I just think this should be Arcanes thing. Its a major part of what makes arcane unique to the other two specs. I don't want to see more homogenization. Besides, like I stated above, its not like fire and frost don't have limiting factors already in place.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
The devs have stated on several occasions since they established the design in Cata that managing mana is intended to be an Arcane-specific thing, with the vast majority of DPS caster specs not having to think about it much at all.
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90 Orc Mage
12560
I see what you're saying Esmee, my bad before. Maybe what I want is fire and frost to be separated again. I hate replaced my blastwave bind with deep freeze, feels like I'm just taking something cool from frost. Maybe the core problem is the pure classes. All the specs kinda just feel the same or don't live up the the description.

For example here is the MM hunter description. A master Archer or Sharpshooter who excels at bringing down down enemies from afar. The spec has no damage boost for being for away at all. Deep fire got access to shatter in cata, and it worked out pretty well. Reducing RNG is always a good thing. The way they handled some of the specs just seemed like a big step back from all the cool things they added. Playing as an Elemental mage used to be an option, now it seems forced.

When wrath hit and I read Fiery payback it almost seemed like they were starting to go with a blood mage style thing for fire, and they just abandoned the idea completely.
Edited by Monocle on 6/13/2013 10:07 AM PDT
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1 Human Mage
0
The devs have stated on several occasions since they established the design in Cata that managing mana is intended to be an Arcane-specific thing, with the vast majority of DPS caster specs not having to think about it much at all.

Neither do Arcane mages.

It is not a case of managing mana. AB4 AM(2) ABr (basically, just following Arcane's static rotation) will automatically ensure your mana remains fine.

There is no real 'mana management' or 'mana play' in the spec (at least, to the extent that it existed in Cata, with CC procs, MoEs, dynamic mana pool procs, burn phases etc etc).

"Mana management" for MoP arcane is nothing more than a 'are you a noob?' test now.

If you are a noob and haven't bothered to read the rotation (for those who do not know, it is AB4 AM(2) ABr, rinse repeat), you will mess up on mana.

For the majority of mages who aren't noobs, they will use the rotation and mana will be just as forgetful to you as it is for everyone else.
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23 Night Elf Hunter
110
Hopefully they are working on a way to balance the 3 specs with each other.

Currently, Frost is too strong at low gear to pass up on, but it scales very very poorly above 530. The opposite is true for arcane and fire, needing high levels of gear (as well as set bonus' and meta gems) to be even considered.

I think the biggest issue people had with mages was that they were basically being forced into a particular spec, meaning they couldn't play the game how they wanted.

I for one love frost mages, and am not much looking forward to having to change to fire or arcane (and relearning how to play them), so I would love to see something that keeps them equal in the SoO raid.

^this. I love arcane and can't play it. Frost isn't too bad which I have been for this patch and Fire I never liked playing. Too much RNG for a spec and honestly I find it boring. I know most find Arcane boring but that is my preferred choice just like Fire might be for others. I guess time will tell what happens to mages next patch.

My guess is there will be buffs then quickly nerfed worse then how mage is now or nerfed then added a band-aid buff.
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90 Worgen Mage
12585
Its still extremely early. Besides, mages are in a really good (at by that I mean balanced) spot atm. It could be that Blizz has big plans that they don't want to reveal yet before they get it right. My money is on very little changes this up-coming patch.


Mages don't seem to be in that good a place to me.

For PVE raiding:
Arcane - not viable in raids till late heroic gear (ilevel 530-540 or so). And even then only effective on certain fights.
Fire - not viable in raids till sufficient crit obtained (ilevel 515-520 or so).
Frost - the only viable spec for the majority of mages.

For PVP:
Arcane - not viable for the vast majority of mages in pvp. Only used by a very small group of die-hards.

Level 90 talents:
Hated by a large majority of mages. They aren't fun.
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90 Worgen Mage
12565
06/13/2013 10:10 AMPosted by Zomgdps
The devs have stated on several occasions since they established the design in Cata that managing mana is intended to be an Arcane-specific thing, with the vast majority of DPS caster specs not having to think about it much at all.


Neither do Arcane mages.

It is not a case of managing mana. AB4 AM(2) ABr (basically, just following Arcane's static rotation) will automatically ensure your mana remains fine.

There is no real 'mana management' or 'mana play' in the spec (at least, to the extent that it existed in Cata, with CC procs, MoEs, dynamic mana pool procs, burn phases etc etc).

"Mana management" for MoP arcane is nothing more than a 'are you a noob?' test now.

If you are a noob and haven't bothered to read the rotation (for those who do not know, it is AB4 AM(2) ABr, rinse repeat), you will mess up on mana.

For the majority of mages who aren't noobs, they will use the rotation and mana will be just as forgetful to you as it is for everyone else.


Don't forget "spam Nether Tempest on everything'" with that rotation.
Edited by Methusula on 6/13/2013 12:22 PM PDT
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1 Human Mage
0
Don't forget "spam Nether Tempest on everything'" with that rotation.

Just thinking about it brings an ache and pain to my tab-targetting finger.

Oh god how I hate the abominable state the bombs are in.
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90 Human Mage
IQ
8250
The devs have stated on several occasions since they established the design in Cata that managing mana is intended to be an Arcane-specific thing, with the vast majority of DPS caster specs not having to think about it much at all.


After they said this, i had an idea of every spec having their own resource to manage. Call them "Mana" for arcane, "Gasoline" for fire, and "Liquid Nitrogen" for frost, obviously the names are jacked, but you get the picture. Each would have a different effect on the spec. Perhaps Arcanes would stay the same and be depleted as its used, but fire and frosts could use builders to enhance certain abilities, or enter the "Napalm Zone" for 10 secs increasing damage, reduce cast time, unlock a new boom boom etc.

The point being is mana as a resource is wasted on most caster specs. It works fine the way it is, but if thats the design they are going to stick with, it could be interesting to use that bar for something new.
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1 Human Mage
0
And where have you been lost Batar? You've been awol for a while...

You were supposed to be taking care of Arcane here on the forums but in your absence the spec fell by the wayside.

Look what you gone and done did!
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90 Human Mage
IQ
8250
Haha. Ive been on vacation for a few months. Im still not 100% back, as i logged on a week ago did a few storyline quests, ended up up with a bunch of new dailies, killed the new world bosses, found out lfr gave out gear that was only 3 ilevels higher than what i had 3 months ago, and am back on temporary vacation until the new tier comes out i think, but ill be keeping up a bit more and listening to all of you about our class.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
14660
/tinfoil hat

I think Blizzard has some sort of policy where they wait as long as possible before they start releasing mage changes since it tends to draw an extreme amount of complaints no matter what they change, even if we get nerfed people complain about us not being nerfed enough.
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90 Troll Mage
4120
Personally, as someone who plays wow specifically to PvP I find it a bit bias that WoW buffs or nerfs a class based on PvE. I love fire and its the only reason I play wow, but some of these suggested changes would force me to go frost because people have a problem with fire playing the way it does. In PvP we need all of the talents we can get to keep up with all the PvP abilities frost has
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90 Troll Shaman
15790
Personally, as someone who plays wow specifically to PvP I find it a bit bias that WoW buffs or nerfs a class based on PvE. I love fire and its the only reason I play wow, but some of these suggested changes would force me to go frost because people have a problem with fire playing the way it does. In PvP we need all of the talents we can get to keep up with all the PvP abilities frost has


They also buff and nerf a class based on PVP. They do it to both groups.
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I really hope they change the level 90 talents. I don't care if it's a 15% nerf to my overall damage.

Make the level 90 talents so we can polymorph things into a polar bear. Make the level 90 talents allow us to conjure happy meals instead of buns. Make the level 90 talents allow us to make the portals 2x bigger. Make the level 90 talents place a beam that does nothing over us. Do something.

They are just _NOT FUN_.
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90 Worgen Mage
NI
12790
After they said this, i had an idea of every spec having their own resource to manage. Call them "Mana" for arcane, "Gasoline" for fire, and "Liquid Nitrogen" for frost, obviously the names are jacked, but you get the picture. Each would have a different effect on the spec. Perhaps Arcanes would stay the same and be depleted as its used, but fire and frosts could use builders to enhance certain abilities, or enter the "Napalm Zone" for 10 secs increasing damage, reduce cast time, unlock a new boom boom etc.

The point being is mana as a resource is wasted on most caster specs. It works fine the way it is, but if thats the design they are going to stick with, it could be interesting to use that bar for something new.


After I had wiped the coffee that I spit out onto my computer monitor when I read this, had my great laugh at the audacity of the idea and the genius behind it, I began thinking of all of the amazing posts that I've been following on MMO-Champions and how the people there have been coming up with some unbelievably well thought out and clever ways to make the Mage Class much more fun, more entertaining, more balanced and probably what it was originally in the World of Warcraft Universe, which was MAGIC.

I don't understand why someone without credentials (a Green Poster) is allowed to hold sway over the thousands of people who play Mage, reinforcing the bad ideas which are coming from the Blizzard Development Team, while ignoring thousands upon thousands of posts, constructively critiquing a Class and it's three Specializations, when this person does not play in any of the WoW arenas (Raid, BG, RBG, Dungeon, Scenario, etc), has had no real or factual participation in the development of SimC (I made it a point to check FACTUAL history on this), and was, at best, a peripheral member of the vaunted Elitist Jerks, where REAL players worked for long hours amassing incredible data on the Mage Class in all of it's wonderful variations.

I want to be an Arcane Mage again. I began as Arcane a year ago, and I resent the fact that I had to switch to Fire (at which I am AWFUL, because RNG hates me), due to the destruction of how Arcane can be played in MoP, what with all of the outrageous movement required to be a successful contributor in a raid situation (I am PvE only, knowing that I am not good at PvP whatsoever).

I have come to understand that once I am at an Item Level of 538 and above (and this is NOT including the rise in level due to the Legendary Cape, but ONLY with Raid-available gear). that Arcane can be a viable Spec in a few of the Throne of Thunder encounters.

That this idiocy is going to be further perpetuated is beyond me. There are very reasonable and exciting ideas which have been forwarded by the actual PLAYERS, both newer, middle-of-the-road, and top-end, who have thought long and hard on what is wrong with the Class and it's three Specializations. They have posted most carefully, suggesting how things might be changed which would suit the overall plans of the Blizzard Development Team, as well as making the vast majority of subscription paying players quite happy with the intelligent and well-designed and implemented results.

To have one or two people pooh-pooh the majority of the Mage Community who actually PLAY the Class, who agree with the Development Team without any concrete evidence to support their decisions, and to hold the the Mage Class hostage to a poorly-worked and implemented idea, is unsupportable and the people who are paying their monthly subscription fees need to be acknowledged and given some input to help to better everything.

Thank you.
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90 Gnome Mage
9100
I think I could take almost any nerf if they would just give me my instant flamestrike back :/
(Blastwave)
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90 Pandaren Priest
16910
I really dont understand why people keep saying fire isnt viable until late gear levels. Werent the first msv/hof/toes/tot boss kills done with fire mages? Every time i looked up tier 1 mages this expansion theyve always been fire until later tot levels
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