cmon knee jerk

90 Human Hunter
11060
so i heard it only takes 2 days to buff mages when they are under preforming. so here's your rubber mallet. hunter dps is garbage on every single fight.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17375
Beast is pretty balanced overall.

Survival needs a single target boost and Marksmanship needs an across the board boost as it's just too weak at everything in PvE.

They could use some extra oomph but part of the gap is from Arcane, Demonology, and Rogues being too strong.

And from that, Warlocks will be coming down in 5.4 and Arcane's gimmicky playstyle will likely be addressed, thus nerfing it a bit, as most feedback towards it has been negative from a "fun" PoV.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/14/2013 2:02 PM PDT
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59 Goblin Death Knight
190
Hunter dps has been behind for how many xpacs? There was ONE fight that hunter preformed better then everyone on (and were dead middle if that on every other fight) and they fixed that pretty quick so that hunters never held another #1 spot for the entire xpac.

If you want to play a class that does better then dead middle dps, then hunter is not for you. Because everytime hunter started to climb past dead middle they were nerfed back. They have never and will never be one of the top dps classes. Hunters have there place, it's just not at the top of the meter (unless you are playing with people not as skilled as you are).
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1 Human Mage
0
as most feedback towards it has been negative from a "fun" PoV.

Bingo!

Though I wonder. If Hunters were top dps, would people scramble to get hunter mobility nerfed?

I fully believe that one of the reasons people are QQing hard about Lock mobility is because they also have top-top DPS.

But hunters prove that mobility does not automatically equal big DPS. If only people could see that and realize that nerfing Lock mobility is not really the solution to reducing their DPS.

Sure.. it will nerf their DPS, but it will nerf their 'fun' much more, and there are other ways to nerf DPS while keeping 'fun' constant (i.e not removing their mobility).

But alas, the decision seems to be made now (esp with the recent blue post), and somehow the devs think that its Lock mobility that is the root of all evil. *shrugs*

Aside though, Hunters need a lot of work imho specifically around this 'fun' concept and a real, markable difference in how the three specs play (since right now, they are almost identical). Sure.. BM has strong pets - but that is really a numerical difference.

There is little "actual" difference in how BM plays. I still hit my spec specific shot on CD, use my focus regen ability, and blow my CDs when needed.

In fact, picking different talents has a larger effect on the mechanics of my rotation compared to picking different specs.

This should not be the case.
Edited by Zomgdps on 6/14/2013 2:14 PM PDT
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17375
Hunter dps has been behind for how many xpacs? There was ONE fight that hunter preformed better then everyone on (and were dead middle if that on every other fight) and they fixed that pretty quick so that hunters never held another #1 spot for the entire xpac.

If you want to play a class that does better then dead middle dps, then hunter is not for you. Because everytime hunter started to climb past dead middle they were nerfed back. They have never and will never be one of the top dps classes. Hunters have there place, it's just not at the top of the meter (unless you are playing with people not as skilled as you are).


Ideally, almost all classes and specs would be around where Beast Mastery is currently, some slightly higher or lower but around that general area. We shouldn't have specs like Demonology or the abomination that is Arcane currently flat destroying people by 10% or more.

It's Survival and Marks who need a little love (a lot in the case of Marks.)

But what we'll actually get is yet another hotfix buff to Aspect of the Hawk after the main progression is over, as has been the norm for a couple years.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/14/2013 2:18 PM PDT
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59 Goblin Death Knight
190
Personally, I'm going to go finish gearing my mage now so I can switch my hunter out fo my raid group. The only nitch it serves is Bloodlust and the mage can do that in all 3 specs. It also means 10% spell power which we can't get if I'm bringing a bloodlust pet. So at least for my raid group mage will bring better buffs. As well as better dps and utility.

Honestly, I can't think of much reason to play hunter over mage anymore. Mage just does everything a hunter can do but better and easier, and will always have at least one top shelf spec. It's sad really, I loved playing hunter. But why not go the rout that offers more reward for much less effort?
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17375
As stated before, the Hunter shot system needs to be overhauled. It doesn't really make sense, signature shots having a Focus cost AND a cooldown limits the benefit of Haste rating (we don't gain very much from ANY of our secondaries from a scaling perspective.)

All 3 specs basically feel identical due to Arcane Shot filler being a core part of all 3 specs.

We're doing poor on two fronts; net damage potential and also class/specialization flavor.
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As stated before, the Hunter shot system needs to be overhauled. It doesn't really make sense, signature shots having a Focus cost AND a cooldown limits the benefit of Haste rating (we don't gain very much from ANY of our secondaries from a scaling perspective.)

All 3 specs basically feel identical due to Arcane Shot filler being a core part of all 3 specs.

We're doing poor on two fronts; net damage potential and also class/specialization flavor.


What are you talking about I love pressing 2 buttons for 90% of my active damage.
/sarcasm...
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100 Orc Shaman
10840
t. hunter dps is garbage on every single fight.


hunter damage is absurd in every threes fight.
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90 Undead Warlock
12555
hunter damage is absurd in every threes fight.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17375
06/14/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Jkspiritlink
t. hunter dps is garbage on every single fight.


hunter damage is absurd in every threes fight.

When someone says DPS and not damage, especially when saying "on every single fight," it's likely reference to PvE.

His reference to Mages getting their DPS fix further reinforces that it was a PvE post.

And he's right. Beast Mastery is middle pack on average while Survival is slumping down the charts due to lack of single target effectiveness and Marksmanship is a bottom feeder from being basically trash.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/14/2013 4:47 PM PDT
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10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
Bingo!

Though I wonder. If Hunters were top dps, would people scramble to get hunter mobility nerfed?

I fully believe that one of the reasons people are QQing hard about Lock mobility is because they also have top-top DPS.

But hunters prove that mobility does not automatically equal big DPS. If only people could see that and realize that nerfing Lock mobility is not really the solution to reducing their DPS.


shh, you are using logic!

devs dont like logic.
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12 Pandaren Monk
10425
And he's right. Beast Mastery is middle pack on average while Survival is slumping down the charts due to lack of single target effectiveness and Marksmanship is a bottom feeder from being basically trash.


What numbers are we using to say BM is even middle? I dont see it as middle and the thread I started with 25 man heroic numbers got deleted so Ill ask again... what numbers show you Bm is middle and not bottom 3rd on all but 1 fight?
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17375
06/14/2013 04:51 PMPosted by Didiletudie
And he's right. Beast Mastery is middle pack on average while Survival is slumping down the charts due to lack of single target effectiveness and Marksmanship is a bottom feeder from being basically trash.


What numbers are we using to say BM is even middle? I dont see it as middle and the thread I started with 25 man heroic numbers got deleted so Ill ask again... what numbers show you Bm is middle and not bottom 3rd on all but 1 fight?

If you analyze median DPS on 25H All Parses then analyze fight to fight, Beast Mastery is pulling roughly mid pack on each fight, sometimes floating up or down 2 slots or so from the middle.

It's still not in a GREAT place but it's at least ok for now and likely won't see any changes, especially due to PvP.

Mid pack/solid median is ideal really but unfortunately some specs haven't been worked on with balance in mind. BM is in a good spot from a big picture persepctive, but looks extremely poor due to the gap between it and the top specs like Demonology. Survival is just in a slump and Marks still sucks.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/14/2013 5:02 PM PDT
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8 Goblin Warrior
0
06/14/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Jkspiritlink
t. hunter dps is garbage on every single fight.


hunter damage is absurd in every threes fight.
I love how you interject PvP in a PvE thread. Isn't Elemental doing about the same or even more than BM is in threes?
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100 Orc Shaman
10840
When someone says DPS and not damage, especially when saying "on every single fight," it's likely reference to PvE.

His reference to Mages getting their DPS fix further reinforces that it was a PvE post.

And he's right. Beast Mastery is middle pack on average while Survival is slumping down the charts due to lack of single target effectiveness and Marksmanship is a bottom feeder from being basically trash.


yes but you cant buff hunters in pve without buffing them further in pvp.

Also if you are middle of the pack you are exactly where you should be. Everyone should be a 5, No one should be a 10, and no one should be a 1.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17375
When someone says DPS and not damage, especially when saying "on every single fight," it's likely reference to PvE.

His reference to Mages getting their DPS fix further reinforces that it was a PvE post.

And he's right. Beast Mastery is middle pack on average while Survival is slumping down the charts due to lack of single target effectiveness and Marksmanship is a bottom feeder from being basically trash.


yes but you cant buff hunters in pve without buffing them further in pvp.

Also if you are middle of the pack you are exactly where you should be. Everyone should be a 5, No one should be a 10, and no one should be a 1.

We have one spec that floats between being a 4 and being a 6, one at a 7, then another at a 10.

The problem is Hunters are poorly designed and have a staggering amount of overlap and all 3 specs are technically PvP viable, meaning buffs to get us on track could throw things off. It's why Marks is a piece of !@#$ in PvE.

Blizzard has designed themselves into a corner with our kits and are at the point where they have to make a choice as Hunters are currently doing fairly poor in PvE because of PvP balance. Even our best spec currently for PvE, Beast Mastery, can easily drop off the face of the earth next tier depending on how fights are designed. It sees large swings in damage between fights after the Blink Strike nerf and goes between being "slightly better than the middle" and "slightly under the middle" with no real stability.

We specifically told Blizzard about our kit overlap issues and it got completely blown off because of the Warlock revamp. We now have kits that use the same exact Focus dump that makes up 30-35% of our DPS and shared between all 3 specs. Our filler shot is then stuck being balanced between our garbage regenerator shot damage (that can't be strong as to not conflict with Arcane Shot) and our signature shots that are also weak because of Arcane Shot and can't be boosted without providing too much PvP damage on short cooldowns and are JUST strong enough to be worth using on cooldown.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/14/2013 8:38 PM PDT
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86 Tauren Druid
10425
Ideally, almost all classes and specs would be around where Beast Mastery is currently, some slightly higher or lower but around that general area. We shouldn't have specs like Demonology or the abomination that is Arcane currently flat destroying people by 10% or more.

It's Survival and Marks who need a little love (a lot in the case of Marks.)


What I noticed after doing a bit of looking into BM is that your correct they are basically when played by the average heroic raider, middle to lower middle.

However, as you move up from the 50 percentile the hunters with actual skills, playing with others that have skills, you begin to see hunters drop like a stone.

When you get into the 70 - 80 -90 percentile (I dont count max because of the exploiters and cd stackers that dominate the top 10%) You see a VERY different story, you see BM hunters in the bottom third of 12/13 fights.

90th- http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Jin%27rokh_the_Breaker/25H/all/14/30/p90/
80th- http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Jin%27rokh_the_Breaker/25H/all/14/30/p80/
70th- http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Jin%27rokh_the_Breaker/25H/all/14/30/p70/

This equates to me that the more skilled you and the surrounding players are the worse Hunters actually become. That in and of its self is a huge problem.
This seems to back up the scaling issue but not just a gear scaling issue but a skill scaling issue which is a entire other problem.

Thoughts?
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100 Orc Shaman
10840
I love how you interject PvP in a PvE thread. Isn't Elemental doing about the same or even more than BM is in threes?


It is and every tuesday that goes by without significant nerfs to elemental is a day i /facepalm at blizzard.

Granted ele is in the same spot as hunters in PVE, very meh, so they cant really nerf ele damage or bm pvp damage without making them worse in pve.

But they also cant buff ele in pve and expect it to not make it even sillier in pvp. Its all connected and to discuss damage in one aspect of the game you have to discuss damage in all aspects.
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