5.4 Subtlety PvE T16 Bonus Implications

90 Blood Elf Rogue
10705
Item - Rogue T16 2P Bonus (New) When you generate a combo point from Revealing Strike, Honor Amongst Thieves, or Seal Fate, your next combo point generating ability has its energy cost reduced by 5. Stacks up to 5 times.

Item - Rogue T16 4P Bonus (New) Killing Spree deals 10% more damage every time it strikes a target. Abilities against a target with Vendetta on it increase your mastery by 250 for 5 sec, stacking up to 20 times. Every 4 Backstabs, your Backstab is replaced with Ambush that can be used regardless of Stealth.

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These bonuses are incredibly powerful as they currently stand, I would not be surprised to see an increase of 40-50k dps once you get your 4 piece. Let me explain.

2P: Pooling for Shadow Dance while HaT is doing its work will allow you to fit in more Ambushes. It will also decrease our Backstab energy by pretty much a flat 5 energy if you time it inbetween HaT procs.

4P: Will make Subtlety a lot more fun imo. But remember that Ambush applies Find Weakness. With this bonus, we will literally have 100% uptime on FW, an enormous increase in dps.

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I'm pretty sure that it will be changed before it goes live but I would suggest doing either of these things before things get out of hand:

- Put an ICD on the FW application of the bonus Ambush.

Or:

- Don't have the bonus Ambush apply FW at all. (I'm pretty sure our dps would still be top tier going this route due to the 2P)
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90 Troll Rogue
21045
This set bonus clearly looks to me like a test drive for a sub modification next expansion that allows proc ambushes.

I could see it being a bit over the top but until I work out some numbers I'm not willing to put that much weight behind my intuition.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
17795
This set bonus clearly looks to me like a test drive for a sub modification next expansion that allows proc ambushes.

I could see it being a bit over the top but until I work out some numbers I'm not willing to put that much weight behind my intuition.


That was my thoughts precisely, and honestly I'm all for it, although i am curious about whether the energy cost will drop or not. May be a it weird if it doesn't.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
This set bonus clearly looks to me like a test drive for a sub modification next expansion that allows proc ambushes.

I could see it being a bit over the top but until I work out some numbers I'm not willing to put that much weight behind my intuition.


I never even thought of that. Could be true!
It's definitely something that will have a huge impact on Subtlety PVE players. Usually when something has that large of an impact, they take it off the set bonus and put it somewhere more accessible. :P
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14345
i would like that 4th set bonus for sub to had been passive instead just like marksman hunters with their aim shot .
Edited by Destiria on 6/11/2013 9:40 PM PDT
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90 Undead Rogue
7010
Called it lol http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9165786965#1
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90 Undead Rogue
10525
Called it lol http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9165786965#1

Set bonus doesn't change that Sub fails hard at anything other than tunneling single target.

We'd need a Dragon Soul 2.0 for Sub to be dominant again.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
10705
This set bonus clearly looks to me like a test drive for a sub modification next expansion that allows proc ambushes.

I could see it being a bit over the top but until I work out some numbers I'm not willing to put that much weight behind my intuition.



That was my thoughts precisely, and honestly I'm all for it, although i am curious about whether the energy cost will drop or not. May be a it weird if it doesn't.


I had proposed a similar idea to this a few weeks ago that was basically a shadow dance-esque proc that would allow a single use of ambush without the need to stealth. I'm very happy that they are doing this and hopefully they fully implement it into the spec if this test drive goes well.

As for the energy cost, I don't think that is the goal of the bonus but rather to just replace it with ambush. The math will have to be worked out whether the DPE of a 60 energy ambush is better than a backstab. (Taking the 2P into account as well)

If it ends up being lower, then I suspect we will see some sort of ambush weaving happening where it is only used outside of CD's to maintain the FW debuff.


I never even thought of that. Could be true!
It's definitely something that will have a huge impact on Subtlety PVE players. Usually when something has that large of an impact, they take it off the set bonus and put it somewhere more accessible. :P


I hope it becomes permanent, it's going to be very fun.

Called it lol http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9165786965#1


Lol, but some of us have been playing Subtlety PvE for years. (I started playing sub during firelands if I remember correctly)

It's a great spec with really high potential, but some mechanics just really screw you over. >.<
Edited by Snail on 6/11/2013 10:56 PM PDT
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90 Troll Rogue
13655
06/11/2013 09:57 PMPosted by Backstabi
Called it lol http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9165786965#1

Set bonus doesn't change that Sub fails hard at anything other than tunneling single target.

We'd need a Dragon Soul 2.0 for Sub to be dominant again.


This^

Unless sub crushes the other two spec in single target damage there is still no reason to play it. And there usually ends up being some fights you can't play sub on at all anyways due to positional requirements. During DS sub had the niche of self healing / less damage taken. It could do something well that the other two specs couldn't, but it no longer has that.

I say this as someone who really likes sub and wishes there was a reason to play it again.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
10705

This^

Unless sub crushes the other two spec in single target damage there is still no reason to play it. And there usually ends up being some fights you can't play sub on at all anyways due to positional requirements. During DS sub had the niche of self healing / less damage taken. It could do something well that the other two specs couldn't, but it no longer has that.

I say this as someone who really likes sub and wishes there was a reason to play it again.


I agree, though I will always be sub no matter what. :D
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90 Human Rogue
15890
For sub, the 100% uptime on 100% arp may be really fun.

Maybe if we run into a Dragon Soul 2.0 time span, it'd be really fun to mess with.

As FD suggested, my first thought is that they may be experimenting with proc-ability swapping, which may be quite interesting in the future of rogues.
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90 Human Rogue
17215
Sad thing is Sub will get the least out of the T16 set bonuses.

The 2Piece is incredibly problematic for Sub (possibly Combat as well).

For Sub, we already GAIN Energy when we use a 5 point Finisher. We are also a spec that loves to hit back to back finishers (Vanish > Opener > Evis > Evis -- with MoS and FW up is a lot of spike dmg).

Even pushing into 10 CPs to hit off Rupture followed by SnD is often optimal in normal rotation to maximize uptimes without clipping.

The 2 Piece on paper looks great. In theory, Sub would get 5 energy every 2 seconds.

The problem is, we only get that Energy back when we hit off a Finisher. And when we hit off a Finisher we're ALREADY getting 25 Energy back. This means, the 2 piece would be giving us 50 energy back. (Plus we are ticking for another 8 energy and our normal Energy regen is anywhere from 10-15 Energy).

This means in 1 tick, spending 25 Energy, we'd get 70 Energy back. For a 100 Energy bar, that's ridiculous. This would mean we'd need to hit off our Finisher at 30 Energy -- which is actually the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we want to do when we pool Energy. (It also means that we can't hit back to back Finishers without Energy capping -- the first one put us from 30 to 100 Energy, the next one would be 25-30 Energy simply wasted -- we'd actually be losing Energy efficiency).

The stacking proc nature of the 2 Piece also means it won't always be the same. Every Finisher will be different. 1 Finisher I'll want to be at 30 Energy, the next I'll want to be at 65. It's making a somewhat buff, debuff management heavy spec much more complicated.

In practice this would actually make it harder to pool energy and much more likely for Energy to be lost during a Finisher for Sub.

4 Piece Sub

2 problems. Energy Cost. CP generation.

the extra CPs from Ambush on RNG -- pretty much makes Anticipation mandatory for Sub. (It really already is -- but going into 6.0, baselining Anticipation should be seriously considered. Considering Palis 3 HP finishers on a 5 HP bar is essentially the same functionality as Anticipation (which they get for free and don't waste nearly as many CPS as Rogues do -- plus carry their Hps on themselves rather than their targets -- baselining Anticipation should really happen in 6.0).

Ambush's 60 Energy Cost out of Stealth is an issue. An easy fix is to make this proc'd Ambush have no Energy cost (or 35 Energy).

I really like the idea of this proc, especially as a trial run for something in 6.0.

HOWEVER, it greatly devalues ShadowDance as a DPS CD. Shadow Dance alone puts FW up every ~18 secs every 60. An opener, Vanish, Prep all increase this -- Not to mention Shadow Blades is essentially the same type of armor ignoring CD.

The first minute of combat for Sub already has a very large uptime on FW.

A heavier reliance on FW also makes target switching for Sub even harder.

Looking forward to 6.0 -- Marrying the majority of Sub DPS to FW (and having our CDs also only grant us DPS increases due to FW being on a target) is going to create longer term problems for the spec.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
10705
This post is full of incorrect information, where to begin..

Sad thing is Sub will get the least out of the T16 set bonuses.

The 2Piece is incredibly problematic for Sub (possibly Combat as well).

For Sub, we already GAIN Energy when we use a 5 point Finisher. We are also a spec that loves to hit back to back finishers (Vanish > Opener > Evis > Evis -- with MoS and FW up is a lot of spike dmg).


This is not how you open with Subtlety in PvE at all. And we don't gain energy from finishers, we get it back. Finishers still cost energy.


Even pushing into 10 CPs to hit off Rupture followed by SnD is often optimal in normal rotation to maximize uptimes without clipping.

The 2 Piece on paper looks great. In theory, Sub would get 5 energy every 2 seconds.


No, we wouldn't. It's a reduced energy cost, not energy back.


The problem is, we only get that Energy back when we hit off a Finisher. And when we hit off a Finisher we're ALREADY getting 25 Energy back. This means, the 2 piece would be giving us 50 energy back. (Plus we are ticking for another 8 energy and our normal Energy regen is anywhere from 10-15 Energy).


Like I said earlier, the energy gain from finishers is neutral, we don't gain anything.

The 2 piece doesn't give us 25 energy on a finisher. No clue where you got this from but I think you need to re-read the 2 piece bonus.


This means in 1 tick, spending 25 Energy, we'd get 70 Energy back. For a 100 Energy bar, that's ridiculous. This would mean we'd need to hit off our Finisher at 30 Energy -- which is actually the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we want to do when we pool Energy. (It also means that we can't hit back to back Finishers without Energy capping -- the first one put us from 30 to 100 Energy, the next one would be 25-30 Energy simply wasted -- we'd actually be losing Energy efficiency).

The stacking proc nature of the 2 Piece also means it won't always be the same. Every Finisher will be different. 1 Finisher I'll want to be at 30 Energy, the next I'll want to be at 65. It's making a somewhat buff, debuff management heavy spec much more complicated.

In practice this would actually make it harder to pool energy and much more likely for Energy to be lost during a Finisher for Sub.


None of this is accurate, see the above.


4 Piece Sub

2 problems. Energy Cost. CP generation.

the extra CPs from Ambush on RNG -- pretty much makes Anticipation mandatory for Sub. (It really already is -- but going into 6.0, baselining Anticipation should be seriously considered. Considering Palis 3 HP finishers on a 5 HP bar is essentially the same functionality as Anticipation (which they get for free and don't waste nearly as many CPS as Rogues do -- plus carry their Hps on themselves rather than their targets -- baselining Anticipation should really happen in 6.0).

Ambush's 60 Energy Cost out of Stealth is an issue. An easy fix is to make this proc'd Ambush have no Energy cost (or 35 Energy).

I really like the idea of this proc, especially as a trial run for something in 6.0.


I agree that Anticipation should be baseline. Ambush will still likely be worth it if it procs FW or if the DPE is higher than backstab because FW itself is worth a ton of dps.


HOWEVER, it greatly devalues ShadowDance as a DPS CD. Shadow Dance alone puts FW up every ~18 secs every 60. An opener, Vanish, Prep all increase this -- Not to mention Shadow Blades is essentially the same type of armor ignoring CD.

The first minute of combat for Sub already has a very large uptime on FW.

A heavier reliance on FW also makes target switching for Sub even harder.

Looking forward to 6.0 -- Marrying the majority of Sub DPS to FW (and having our CDs also only grant us DPS increases due to FW being on a target) is going to create longer term problems for the spec.


This is somewhat true, however SD will still be worth using simply for the huge burst. (On demand 40 energy ambushes)
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90 Night Elf Rogue
17795
It's hard to wrap my head around the uptime FW will have; and I'm a nightelf too, which leaves another source for FW (shadowmeld). Hopefully they won't blast the idea to oblivion like they did with the meta gem boosting Subtlety to insane lengths.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10400
Hey guys, I've started up a thread on the PTR forum in hopes of consolidating thoughts/concerns/questions in a way that may make it easier for Ghostcrawler to respond. Maybe.

Anyway, if you'd like to chip in and add questions (or correct stupid/wrong/incomplete things I've already put there), please feel free.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9280358579
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90 Troll Rogue
21045
I've got some sub 4pc estimates.

Most up to date numbers will be here:
http://roguechat.wordpress.com/2013/...inary-numbers/

Sub Bonus EP values:
rogue_t16_4pc: 6768.49382779
rogue_t16_2pc: 5165.60384164
rogue_t14_4pc: 1634.78976441
rogue_t14_2pc: 1289.29222798
rogue_t15_4pc: 1283.16970319
rogue_t15_2pc: 738.154784561
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
10705
I've got some sub 4pc estimates.

Most up to date numbers will be here:
http://roguechat.wordpress.com/2013/...inary-numbers/

Sub Bonus EP values:
rogue_t16_4pc: 6768.49382779
rogue_t16_2pc: 5165.60384164
rogue_t14_4pc: 1634.78976441
rogue_t14_2pc: 1289.29222798
rogue_t15_4pc: 1283.16970319
rogue_t15_2pc: 738.154784561


Omg so delicious, I want it!
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90 Troll Rogue
9225
rogue_t16_4pc: 6768.49382779
rogue_t16_2pc: 5165.60384164
rogue_t14_4pc: 1634.78976441
rogue_t14_2pc: 1289.29222798
rogue_t15_4pc: 1283.16970319
rogue_t15_2pc: 738.154784561


o_o

is this reality?
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90 Human Rogue
17215
This post is full of incorrect information, where to begin..

Sad thing is Sub will get the least out of the T16 set bonuses.

The 2Piece is incredibly problematic for Sub (possibly Combat as well).

For Sub, we already GAIN Energy when we use a 5 point Finisher. We are also a spec that loves to hit back to back finishers (Vanish > Opener > Evis > Evis -- with MoS and FW up is a lot of spike dmg).


This is not how you open with Subtlety in PvE at all. And we don't gain energy from finishers, we get it back. Finishers still cost energy.


1) That wasn't the opener I was talking about.

That's when you use Vanish as a DPS CD.

You want to get 3 Eviscerates in with MoS and FW up (preferably all procs too). To do this you need ~7CPs going into it. You also want a ton of Energy so you can maximize the amount of Backstabs you get against FW. At the same time, you don't want to be Energy capping. It's already a delicate balance.

You also don't want to be refreshing SnD or Rupture during this time, so you need to set all that up, plus leave a 10 sec window.

2) Yes, I misread how the 2 piece worked. It's on CP generators not Finishers. Much better than what I thought it was :).
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90 Human Rogue
17215


HOWEVER, it greatly devalues ShadowDance as a DPS CD. Shadow Dance alone puts FW up every ~18 secs every 60. An opener, Vanish, Prep all increase this -- Not to mention Shadow Blades is essentially the same type of armor ignoring CD.

The first minute of combat for Sub already has a very large uptime on FW.

A heavier reliance on FW also makes target switching for Sub even harder.

Looking forward to 6.0 -- Marrying the majority of Sub DPS to FW (and having our CDs also only grant us DPS increases due to FW being on a target) is going to create longer term problems for the spec.


This is somewhat true, however SD will still be worth using simply for the huge burst. (On demand 40 energy ambushes)


This wasn't a comment on whether or not SD will still be used (it will), rather a comment on it as a DPS CD, especially when compared to Assassination and Combat's ON USE DPS CDs.

The 4 piece is a straight BUFF to Combat and Assassination's DPS CDs -- two specs that already have much stronger DPS CDs than Sub does.

I was also looking to the future (as this functionality seems like something they'd add to Sub in 6.0). If they're going to devalue SD, Sub really should get an ON USE DPS CD of some sort with a 2-3min use time. It can't compete with Assassination or Combat during the start of a fight when all CDs are blown and under Hero. It also can't compete with them when the fight has an increased dmg mechanic every X minutes for a sizable chunk of time.

Sub's DPS CDs are very short duration, short CD -- which causes them to be more middling dmg than big DPS CDs. The damage is more spread out throughout the fight.
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