Blizzard can you properly balance Hunters?

100 Human Hunter
15895
Lawl all of the hunter changes threads before I posted this.

First off. Blizzard STOP listening to the QQ of these ilvl 502 LFR Champions, and these kids still still progressing on normal mode. I have been there and done that, and those were the days when I knew nothing.

Your latest change was smart, I do agree stampede burst needed a fix (for PvP reasons), and they way you compensated by giving us a Arcane and Cobra shot buff was greatly appreciated. This in turn gave us a *very small* buff over the course of a long fight.

I'm hearing now that you plan on shoving our class lower into the sim charts with changes like Readiness not resetting the cooldown of Beastial Wrath (AND BY THE WAY, if you plan on doing that I would suggest you re-think your T16 4P.. which is already bad).

Now we all know hunters are great in PvP right now, and Blizzard is trying their best to tone them down.. but what they are failing to see is they are killing us in PvE.

Hunters right now are THE LOWEST simulated PURE DPS CLASS. We, in most cases are even lower than hybrid classes.

You at Blizzard have always said "Bring the Player, not the Class", so why can't the player play what he wants and still be competitive? My guild finished US 17th 10man this tier, and I feel like if we had an Elemental Shaman, or even Boomkin in our core, I would not be raiding. Not because I am a bad player, but because when everyone is playing the correct role, we don't need any buffs. I bring no outside utility, I bring no Tranq, I bring no DA, I bring no Healing Tide. I Bring Buffs. I Bring Buffs which in most cases we don't need. And now you are trying to lower my dps even more?

The one question I want to ask you: In a perfect world, with two players equal in skill, how do you want a PURE DPS CLASS to compete with a Hybrid class who already outdps's him?
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100 Human Hunter
15895
...wow that turned into a QQ thread.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
Stampede wasn't the area they should have hit. They should have taken Bestial Wrath off Readiness.

The compensation buffs were horrible. Sure, the end result is the same, but now Kill Command is trash and is only a 1-2% gain to use it in a raid setting over Arcane Shot mashing and is a DPS loss in solo content. It also made Marksmanship even worse in comparison to the other two specs and has effectively killed Aimed Shot as a Focus dump for the rest of the expansion when Marks was finally showing signs of life by switching to AiS after reaching 11k Haste.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/12/2013 12:23 PM PDT
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90 Human Hunter
11060
Stampede wasn't the area they should have hit. They should have taken Bestial Wrath off Readiness.

The compensation buffs were horrible. Sure, the end result is the same, but now Kill Command is trash and is only a 1-2% gain to use it in a raid setting over Arcane Shot mashing and is a DPS loss in solo content. It also made Marksmanship even worse in comparison to the other two specs and has effectively killed Aimed Shot as a Focus dump for the rest of the expansion when Marks was finally showing signs of life by switching to AiS after reaching 11k Haste.


you have said for a long time that bw off readiness was the way to go to fix pvp. while i agree with you, i kind of think that was a much better fix to 5.1 hunters. in its current state it seems like it might be better to just keep shaving off problem areas like stamp and blink strike. hunter is a really long way from blowing cds and scoring a kill during stampede. if you nerfed bw right now bm would be done.

the problem, to me, feels more in how fast hunter can switch targets and have a burst on demand no matter what with readiness. its not op by the numbers, but once you learn what a "mistake" is you can take advantage of it at any time, regardless of how much your opponent's team mates try to stop you. the problem with that, to me, who has played since bc is that i was taught through every forum post i wrote that i was making mistakes when i died and someone took advantage of them. something like a 5 second cd on bw reseting from readiness would be fine atm. i hit my first bw and then readiness, a 5 second cd timer starts on bw. it would keep hunters from breaking chains of cc but wouldnt change how our dps works that much.
Edited by Ilke on 6/12/2013 9:00 PM PDT
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100 Dwarf Hunter
20540
Just remove the CC break on the hunter from it. They already removed the fun wording of the pet CC immunity, so what more would that bit matter? Or make it cause "Beastly Forbearance", and not let the CC break effect trigger more than once a minute.

Something, anything, other than utterly gutting our level 87 ability, and screwing up two of our specs' shot priorities. In a hotfix.
Edited by Yuyn on 6/12/2013 9:36 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9570
This is why I bought my DK out of retirement. Blizzard seem pretty much clueless how to balance Hunters at this point other then turning BM in to a literal two button spec. All the skill ceiling options like high level trap play and finely tuning your Stampede has been thrown into an incinerator and they actually go ahead and buff KC/AS mashing.

I also love how BM was told SS+Intimidation was too damn powerful together....Then they turn around and give it to Marksman. It's like watching some bizarre comedy of errors as they clearly have no idea what to do with Hunters any more.
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100 Worgen Hunter
12310
Well, it has been nice for my spec to actually have been wanted in a raid group.

Especially since I could bring pocket healers, buffs, and / or AOE to the party.

But now I will be lucky not to get insta-kicked from an LFR group.
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100 Human Hunter
15895

Oh cut the crying and stop being over dramatic. You are such a drama queen. Have you even read the patch notes? It's not that bad. If anything BM is only getting a slight nerf.

It's more aimed at pvp if anything.


"If anything BM is only getting a slight nerf."
getting a slight nerf.
a slight nerf
slight nerf
nerf
NERF
NERF

Do you not understand HUNTERS in general are the LOWEST PURE PVE DPS CLASS IN GAME. LOWER than MOST HYBRID CLASSES. NERFING us is NOT the answer. We bring no raid utility when all buff needs are met, and our DPS cannot compete with a rogue/mage/lock at the same skill/gear level.

I'm i545, and just barely competing with other people in my raid who are high i530's. As soon as they catch up to me in gear they will destroy me (and don't tell me I'm just bad, to learn to play my class, I have top 90th percentile parses for almost every fight in h.ToT, implying i'm a top ranking hunter, doing nearly as much DPS as I possibly can do as a hunter).

It's time for a hunter complete overhall. A pure class should not be out dps'ed by shamans, rets, and monks.

Until then, I would suggest buffing our stampede back to what it was, and allow us to keep the AS/CS dmg increase. Make it to where stampede cannot be used in Arenas.

As for Bestial Wrath, make it an every man/trinket and put it on CD with them.. I don't know, just random suggestions. Hunters may over perform in PvP, but are in DESPERATE need of buffs in PvE.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
Hunters right now are THE LOWEST simulated PURE DPS CLASS. We, in most cases are even lower than hybrid classes.

You're now the only class with 100% dps uptime while moving. You have a non-cap AOE. Your AOE is bursty. Your single-target isn't amazing, but it's average.

Stop looking at sims and play the game. You don't need to be #1 on damage. You don't need to be #2 or 3 or 4. You can Deterrence tons of deadly abilities. You're the only reliable Misdirection (Tricks of the Trade is awful). You bring every buff, which is important for 10man (not 25man...but oh well). Considering your class has major flexibility with every encounter imaginable, you have a viable raid spot. If you did 100% of your damage while moving and topped the DPS charts, you're going to get nerfed like your Warlock friends. There's got to be a trade off for the sake of balance.

You keep thinking of your specc is a vacuum. Stop it. Think about it in an actual raid setting. My AOE is dog!@#$. I don't bother killing Ball Lightning because the warlocks, hunters, and everyone else with good AOE will do that. I get to turret the boss, and it makes my numbers look lower than everyone else. Does it mean my specc is awful? No, just that I'm following assignments. Same goes for Multi-DOT specs on Primordius. You can bet I do a massive amount of damage compared to our melee, I'm also sitting on Bloods for 5min. Even with awful buffs (mostly stats and mastery for me), I was able to push a 95th percentile parse. I could scumbag on more encounters and push for higher ranks, but I'd rather kill a boss and hope for some TF'd loot. I ranked #12 on Durumu this week and it wouldn't be anywhere close to a parse on other speccs' rankings. Maybe I need a buff? No. I don't.

You're not in the raid to deal #1 damage, if you didn't offer anything valuable, you'd be sat for a warlock. And you're not being sat for a warlock, so you must be fine -- albeit not #1 at anything.
Edited by Cyous on 6/13/2013 2:00 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
17115
Well hunters have three specs when 5.4 hits as it stands one will be for PvP MM. Fun times for those that don't like the spec. Then one will be for raiding most likely SV due to aoe. So a class with three specs not four is being forced into one for each aspect.

Will BM hunters play and raid most likely. They will be arcane shot spamming with the other two specs great diversity. Also hunters as a class have been being beaten by hybrids singular dps specs since the start of MOP. Which is reall frustrating since ya know dps is all they do. No Bear rawr tank, no Tree sigh heal, no Kitty sneak dps, and no Boomchicken dps. Point is the utility which you bring up. ' Oh yeah we capped two of these threads already lets not start another.' Is going to ensure a raid spot.

The really fun part of this whole thing is hunters get the roller coaster while locks at least get to wait till 5.4 .
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91 Dwarf Warrior
14590


First off. Blizzard STOP listening to the QQ of these ilvl 502 LFR Champions, and these kids still still progressing on normal mode. I have been there and done that, and those were the days when I knew nothing.


Wow, how do you manage to type with that 14 inch @#*@!*** of yours flopping all over the keyboard?

Guess what, those 502 LFR Champions pay their $15 a month just like you do, Blizzard values their opinion just as much as yours.

Plus you have no PvP experience, so by your own logic you know nothing about it, yet that didn't stop you from offering your opinions on the PvP side of things
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96 Human Death Knight
9260
This is what I read from your posts. "ERMEGERD THE SIMS SAY I DO BAD DPS ERMEGERD! BLIZZ HAZ TO BUFF ME SO I CAN BE RAID VIABLE SO I DON'T GET KICKED WHEN MY RAID FINDS OUT HOW BAD I REALLY AM. SO NOW I MAKE A QQ THREAD ABOUT IT. ERMEGARD BLIZZ GAWD BUFF ME!"

Often times I sit down and look at the forums or while playing WoW and wonder how people are heroic raiders.

According to your "ERMEGERD SIMS" death knights are in need of some buffs because all three of our play styles are lowest dps at the highest ilvls. Oh wait... only idiots think sims bring factual information.
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100 Human Hunter
15895
You're now the only class with 100% dps uptime while moving. You have a non-cap AOE. Your AOE is bursty. Your single-target isn't amazing, but it's average.

Stop looking at sims and play the game. You don't need to be #1 on damage. You don't need to be #2 or 3 or 4. You can Deterrence tons of deadly abilities. You're the only reliable Misdirection (Tricks of the Trade is awful). You bring every buff, which is important for 10man (not 25man...but oh well). Considering your class has major flexibility with every encounter imaginable, you have a viable raid spot. If you did 100% of your damage while moving and topped the DPS charts, you're going to get nerfed like your Warlock friends. There's got to be a trade off for the sake of balance.

You keep thinking of your specc is a vacuum. Stop it. Think about it in an actual raid setting. My AOE is dog!@#$. I don't bother killing Ball Lightning because the warlocks, hunters, and everyone else with good AOE will do that. I get to turret the boss, and it makes my numbers look lower than everyone else. Does it mean my specc is awful? No, just that I'm following assignments. Same goes for Multi-DOT specs on Primordius. You can bet I do a massive amount of damage compared to our melee, I'm also sitting on Bloods for 5min. Even with awful buffs (mostly stats and mastery for me), I was able to push a 95th percentile parse. I could scumbag on more encounters and push for higher ranks, but I'd rather kill a boss and hope for some TF'd loot. I ranked #12 on Durumu this week and it wouldn't be anywhere close to a parse on other speccs' rankings. Maybe I need a buff? No. I don't.

You're not in the raid to deal #1 damage, if you didn't offer anything valuable, you'd be sat for a warlock. And you're not being sat for a warlock, so you must be fine -- albeit not #1 at anything.


You're now the only class with 100% dps uptime while moving.

Yes, so do Melee and Locks, while most other classes have things like scorch that are not detrimental to their DPS for the few seconds of movement.

You have a non-cap AOE

True survival doesn't, but your a fool if you play survival with the 5.3 changes.

Your single-target isn't amazing, but it's average.

Yeah. Average. A Pure DPS class, who I should add brings nothing to the raid when all buffs are needed, should not be average, it should be above the hybrid standards of "average".

You can Deterrence tons of deadly abilities.

Cheat Death/Cloak. Ice Block. Bubble. AMS. Hand of Protection making numerous fights one tanked. List goes on.

You bring every buff, which is important for 10man (not 25man...but oh well).

It's not uncommon for 10mans to already provide all buffs needed.

Same goes for Multi-DOT specs on Primordius. You can bet I do a massive amount of damage compared to our melee, I'm also sitting on Bloods for 5min.

I love that you brought this question up. First off, just look at the top parces for survival and BM. BM is solely on Primordius doing about 250k, where as survival is AoEing their !@# off doing about 240k. Just goes to show our AoE isnt as super as you make it out to be in your mind. Now look at locks, their top parce is 500k, more than double that of a SV hunter solely AoEing. Then you see Mages doing 430k... do you not see this problem?

I ranked #12 on Durumu this week and it wouldn't be anywhere close to a parse on other speccs' rankings. Maybe I need a buff? No. I don't.

I think you failed to see my logic when talking about rankings.. a "high ranked hunter", meaning doing some of the highest DPS his class can put out, will not compete with another "high ranked" class, also doing some of the highest DPS his class can put out..

Let me help you out. Lets take a look at Durumu.
Rank #12 Mage = 270k.
Rank #12 Lock = 260k.
--
Rank #12 Boomkin = 220k.
Rank #12 Hunter = 217k.
We are underpreforming hybrid classes at the same level, and drastically getting pounded in the $%^- by other pures.

Now Lets look at Lei Shen. On Heroic I would say its a pretty heavy movement based fight, wouldn't you?
Rank #12 Mage = 190k
Rank #12 Lock = 193k.
--
Rank #12 Boomkin = 170k (staying on boss)
Rank #12 Hunter = 166k SV (switching to balls, supposidly increasing your numbers)

*deep breath*.... yeah.
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100 Human Hunter
15895

Wow, how do you manage to type with that 14 inch @#*@!*** of yours flopping all over the keyboard?

Guess what, those 502 LFR Champions pay their $15 a month just like you do, Blizzard values their opinion just as much as yours.


I rest my case.
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91 Dwarf Warrior
14590
[quote]

I rest my case.


lol good job proving my point about your misguided sense of entitlement.

I rest MY case.
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100 Human Hunter
15895
According to your "ERMEGERD SIMS" death knights are in need of some buffs because all three of our play styles are lowest dps at the highest ilvls.


I would agree, DK's are one of the classes, along with hunters that are at the bottom of the totem pole, the DK in our core isn't bad by all means, but his class relies too much on trinket procs during the initial burst to be any good it seems.

But that discussion is for a different thread.
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90 Orc Hunter
10475
I tried to find common ground with your initial post but it turned into "im a pure dps, I should be doing more then the hybrid because im pure" and that tells me all I need to know.
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91 Dwarf Warrior
14590
but his class relies too much on trinket procs during the initial burst to be any good it seems.

But that discussion is for a different thread.


It's completely relevant to this thread. It shows how gimmicky and random top parses are. There is no difference between the #1 hunter parse on a fight and the #15, the guy who got #1 was either lucky or his raid set up circumstances and did the fight in a particular way with the sole intent of him parsing.

Players being sat for another player, who isn't necessarily better just plays a more desirable spec, is a concept that is as old as Ahn'qiraj, when WoW raiding stopped being completely faceroll.

But this isn't even about being sat. You've cleared all content currently available WITH being "gimped" by having a hunter in your group, what more do you want? You want to show the world how awesome you are at World of Warcraft with a top parse? Because that's what it seems like, so excuse me as I play the world's smallest violin for you.

I may be a 502 LFR Champion, but judging by your woe-is-me attitude and not being completely obsessed with validating myself I think I have a lot more fun playing this videogame than you. And it certainly doesn't mean I don't know how my class or the game works, it simply means I don't have enough time to devote to something like heroic raiding. And I can guarentee you it doesn't mean that Blizz values your $15 a month more than mine.
Edited by Crowingzero on 6/13/2013 12:47 PM PDT
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This worries me:

5.4
Aspect of the Iron Hawk The Hunter takes on the aspects of an iron hawk, increasing ranged attack power by 25%, and reducing all damage taken by 10%. Only one Aspect can be active at a time. Replaces Aspect of the Hawk. Hunter - LvL 45 Talent. Instant. 1 sec cooldown.


Hunter's getting to keep most of their damage reduction when all the other classes that have flat DR are losing it... I know the talent would be deleted if they lost it, but it does seem like it needs a redesign.

Arcane Shot An instant shot that causes 150% weapon damage plus 3,459 as Arcane damage. Requires Ranged Weapon. 30 Focus. 40 yd range.


Better way to dump focus, same damage per focus.... ok

.... but it will also make arcane shot spamming really strong compared to signature shots....

..... and thrill of the hunt..... yeaaaa
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