Blizzard can you properly balance Hunters?

97 Dwarf Hunter
17020
06/13/2013 01:50 AMPosted by Cyous
You're now the only class with 100% dps uptime while moving.

Oh, I look forward to the day when people actually realize that 100% dps uptime while moving isn't some magical ability that causes hunters to somehow skyrocket to the top of the charts.

People keep acting like it is a big deal but in reality it isn't as useful as most people make it out to be, aka: a magical way to bend space and time to our bidding and somehow justify our below par stand still dps with all of the "movement phases" that just seem to be all over the place!
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90 Troll Druid
14580
06/13/2013 11:44 AMPosted by Aara
I love that you brought this question up. First off, just look at the top parces for survival and BM. BM is solely on Primordius doing about 250k, where as survival is AoEing their !@# off doing about 240k. Just goes to show our AoE isnt as super as you make it out to be in your mind.

How in the hell is Primordius AOE? There's a reason people stacked Multi-DOT classes...well, made their warlocks go Affliction...-- because it's not an AOE fest like Tortos.

I think you failed to see my logic when talking about rankings.. a "high ranked hunter", meaning doing some of the highest DPS his class can put out, will not compete with another "high ranked" class, also doing some of the highest DPS his class can put out..

You're failing to apply my argument to your point of view -- you're comparing numbers between different classes. There's a reason much of the raiding community ignores sims and most logs when comparing the output between speccs of different classes. I was damn proud of a 272k DPS parse on a progression kill of Heroic Tortos (#1 at the time), then I saw our warlocks doing nearly 400k.
(looking at tortos now) -> SV right up there with Warlocks (and im not counting those 9min kills where the player does a massive portion of the overall damage).

Yes, so do Melee and Locks, while most other classes have things like scorch that are not detrimental to their DPS for the few seconds of movement.

Melee have to deal with parry issues on some encounters (like Iron Qon, the bosses turns around a lot....I lost count how many times my warrior's CS got parried because of it. Regardless, you're not a melee -- you're ranged. It's still not 100% uptime for mages. Warlocks and Shaman uses similar movement cooldowns. As a balance druid my "movement dps" takes 4 GCDs to fully stack...in which case I'm usually don't moving after just 2 GCds, to which it's a DPS loss to do my movement DPS. So I need to pray for SS procs. Trust me, 100% dps uptime is not something to take lightly.

Yeah. Average. A Pure DPS class, who I should add brings nothing to the raid when all buffs are needed, should not be average, it should be above the hybrid standards of "average".

You bring more than you're saying -- and it's because you want to make your argument look better. Neglecting the facts to make yourself 'worse' doesn't help anything. For reasons I've already listed, you still have a raid spot. When you start getting sat for "EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER" (like most ret paladins did), you'll see Blizzard intervene.

You're not stupid, but you really need to think about what your arguing here. There's plenty of reasons to bring hunters. The classes (warlock mostly) that "would" replace you are getting gutted.
Edited by Cyous on 6/13/2013 1:20 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Paladin
16465
We are not talking about balancing other classes. Since may hunters have been recieving almost weekly nerfs.

This about Blizzard not being able to make a class stable for it's players.

You Cyous are turning it into a class warfare arguement.
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91 Dwarf Warrior
13795


You Cyous are turning it into a class warfare arguement.


But the OP's idea of "balance" is Hunters #1

He flat out said they should be ahead of any hybrid, and I'm assuming he thinks they should be ahead of rogues, locks, and mages as well because apparently hunters bring nothing to the table but damage, while the other pures bring valuable raid utility like smoke bomb, healthstones, and time warp.

Any thread is going to turn into class warfare when the entire basis of your argument is "My class should be #1 for the following reasons..."
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90 Troll Druid
14580
You Cyous are turning it into a class warfare arguement.


Any thread is going to turn into class warfare when the entire basis of your argument is "My class should be #1 for the following reasons..."

That's a good way to to sum it up, and a lot nicer than what I may have posted too.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16440
Crowingzero seriously stand down for a second, you've waded into a thread that has hunters totally up in arms and then make inflamatory comments, of course we are going to bite your head off. The thread is trying to show blizzard how utterly ridiculous the list of nerfs we are getting from a pvp perspective is going to seriously damage our pve utility and stand alone dps value... don't derail the thread for into a class war. we need blizzard to take note of the issues not see dumb !@# inter class flaming.
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59 Goblin Death Knight
190
If the concern was stampede damage in pvp. Then simply removing from pvp (like so many other abilities that unbalanced pvp).

It's a 5 minute CD and lvl 87 ability. It should feel impressive when you use it. Why even bother keeping it around if you need to cut it's dps that far in pve? Why not remove it completely and move the damage to other things. At least that would save us a lackluster button every 5 minutes.
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59 Goblin Death Knight
190
06/13/2013 01:08 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
You're now the only class with 100% dps uptime while moving.

Oh, I look forward to the day when people actually realize that 100% dps uptime while moving isn't some magical ability that causes hunters to somehow skyrocket to the top of the charts.

People keep acting like it is a big deal but in reality it isn't as useful as most people make it out to be, aka: a magical way to bend space and time to our bidding and somehow justify our below par stand still dps with all of the "movement phases" that just seem to be all over the place!


I agree. If that had such a HUGE impact on things, then why are hunters not doing better? Classes with less mobility wouldn't be topping hunters left and right. But they are and have been since early last x-pac when hunter mobility gave them an advantage on ONE fight, leading to a hunter nerf. Very few hunters have made it into top 10 lists since. 100% uptime does not mean much in the end. If a classes dps is balanced around having 80% uptime, it means that pulling off 90% uptime lets you get more dps then intended. Hunters don't have that advantage. It's how I manage to pull similar dps on my mage who's in lesser gear then my hunter. The game has trained us to move as little in possible in boss fights.
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91 Dwarf Warrior
13795
Crowingzero seriously stand down for a second, you've waded into a thread that has hunters totally up in arms and then make inflamatory comments, of course we are going to bite your head off. The thread is trying to show blizzard how utterly ridiculous the list of nerfs we are getting from a pvp perspective is going to seriously damage our pve utility and stand alone dps value... don't derail the thread for into a class war. we need blizzard to take note of the issues not see dumb !@# inter class flaming.


lol, first of all, no. I'm not going to "stand down" when all I'm doing is providing the counterpoint. I'm not flaming or trolling or calling people names. This isn't your private little forum, this is the Blizz forums, I have just as much right to post here as you do, and I'll post if I want to.

Secondly, the OP himself said that even with the Stampede nerf, because of the buffs to Arcane shot and Cobra shot these changes are an overall BUFF to hunter damage. So I don't know what you're talking about with this "seriously damage our pve utility and stand alone dps value". His other point was some hearsay about something Blizz "plans" to do with Readiness. Where exactly does one hear about what Blizz is planning on doing? The Long Island Medium? Was he sitting next to Ghostcrawler on a plane?

Finally, a lot of people have more than one 90 in this game you know. Enough with this class warfare defense, stop obsessing over my avatar and actually read my posts. Not once have have I argued for or against hunter nerfs or buffs. I've explained why I think the OP's reasoning is wrong and completely self-serving, and pointed out the hypocrisy of him being a PvE elitist while having no problem offering his opinions on PvP, of which he has no experience.
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100 Human Hunter
15025
But the OP's idea of "balance" is Hunters #1

I'm not asking for Hunters to be #1. Yes, I am saying we should be doing MORE dps than an ele, boom, enhance, feral, etc. Yes, I'm saying our damage should compete with other pure classes, blizzard has even stated they want pure DPS classes to be doing more than hybrids. For the most part, they have accomplished that, with the exception of hunters.

His other point was some hearsay about something Blizz "plans" to do with Readiness. Where exactly does one hear about what Blizz is planning on doing? The Long Island Medium? Was he sitting next to Ghostcrawler on a plane?

....I dont know how to respond to this stupidity.
Ever heard of patch notes?
#LFRChampionProblems
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90 Undead Death Knight
9885
06/13/2013 01:08 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
You're now the only class with 100% dps uptime while moving.


That is the most incredible thing I have ever read... we are the only class with 100% uptime while moving and yet on 11 of 13 heroic fights we are in the bottom third of the 11 damage specs. One we are in the middle because of bat padding dps and the other we are middle due to mechanics.

Its the fact that we are the only class with 100%dps uptime that makes it so pathetic that we are so low, that and the fact that we are a pure dps class and to top it off have 1 raid utility useage in 13 fights this tier.

I know you tried to throw the moving thing as a way to pretend we are OP but all it proves is that hunters are bad while moving and because of that fact, pathetic overall

Hunter X: wow hunters dps sucks...
Mage Y: ya but you can jump up and down the whole fight!
Hunter X Thanks....

But the OP's idea of "balance" is Hunters #1


Dont think anyone said this and I know I do not feel this way. I do feel we should be higher than 9th out of 11 specs on 85% of the fights, our best fight is 5th (Iron Qon) and our second best 6th, is due to bat padding dps for SV.

I dont want to make an arguement here but it has been 4 raid lockouts since the "buff" to hunters and the numbers are just as bad as they were in 5.2

/shrug
Edited by Jaxophillia on 6/13/2013 4:48 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
06/13/2013 04:21 PMPosted by Aara
But the OP's idea of "balance" is Hunters #1

I'm not asking for Hunters to be #1. Yes, I am saying we should be doing MORE dps than an ele, boom, enhance, feral, etc. Yes, I'm saying our damage should compete with other pure classes, blizzard has even stated they want pure DPS classes to be doing more than hybrids. For the most part, they have accomplished that, with the exception of hunters.


lol
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91 Dwarf Warrior
13795

....I dont know how to respond to this stupidity.
Ever heard of patch notes?
#LFRChampionProblems


Wow, really?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/ This includes the official patch notes and the datamined stuff that hasn't been made official yet.

Now here's the fun part, Ctrl+F "Readiness"

The only thing it says about Readiness is "we have no plans to remove Bestial Wrath from Readiness at this time."

The exact OPPOSITE of what you said. There, in blue text.

Since you started the insults, I gotta ask... How hard were you carried through heroics? I realize hunter isn't the most complicated class to play, you said yourself you have no responsibility other than damage, but damn dude...

The exact opposite of what you said and you call me stupid lol
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100 Human Hunter
15025
http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/238716-hunter-changes-incoming-share-your-ideas/
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100 Human Hunter
15025
carried through heroics.. ha.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
06/13/2013 05:00 PMPosted by Crowingzero
How hard were you carried through heroics?

You can't carry anyone on Dark Animus or Lei Shen, so probably not at all.
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91 Dwarf Warrior
13795
http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/238716-hunter-changes-incoming-share-your-ideas/


Are you serious? You're serious aren't you...

Read the Blizzard quote about BW+Readiness. The official quote, the big blue box in the first post, not the suggestions the AJ posters are making. You can recognize the difference between suggestions that random people make and official things that Blizz says, right?

Have you read that blue line of text? Good, you're halfway to understanding! Now, read the very next set of words. There's five of them. What do they say? "It's not any of these". There's a list of possible changes, followed by "It's not any of these". Do I really need to explain simple context to you?

I realize I'm being hard on this guy, and borderline mean, but c'mon. He keeps sticking his foot in his own !@# at every opportunity.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
Maybe one day we'll get actual development. Hunters are basically what you get when you rely on hotfix adjustements and half assed balancing changes for years.
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90 Undead Death Knight
9885
Lock:
Highest rank: 1 (5 fights)
Top 5's: 11 out of 13 fights
Multiples specs in top 5: 7 out of 13 fights

Mage:
Highest Rank: 1 (3 fights)
Top 5's: 11/13 fights
Multiple specs in top 5: 8 out of 13 fights

Hunter:
Highest rank: 5 (1 fight)
Top 5's: 1/13
Multiples in top 5: 1

In summary:
Locks with 5 fights at the top and 11/13 fights in the top 5.
Mages you have 3 fights at the top and 11/13 in the top 5.
Hunters you have 0 fights at the top and 1/13 in the top 5.

Working as intended?


I dont think its asking or even wanting to be #1, its about these bottom numbers:
1/13 top 5's seriously?
Thats a joke right?
You have the 2 other ranged pures doing top 5 damage 11 of 13 fights and hunters are at 1/13 and you have the gall to say we are asking to be number 1?

How about just make hunters viable? That would be a great place to start!
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90 Night Elf Hunter
16385
06/13/2013 01:55 PMPosted by Darthsirak
This about Blizzard not being able to make a class stable for it's players.


Maybe one day we'll get actual development. Hunters are basically what you get when you rely on hotfix adjustements and half assed balancing changes for years.

This horse needs to be beaten, beaten and beaten again. Resurrected and beaten some more.

Small adjustments I can handle but complete revamps and talent / ability juggling... its getting to be too much. I am probably just "slow" but everytime I start feeling comfortable something changes and I have to adjust my playstyle.

BLIZZ THIS IS NOT FUN!!! WRITE IT DOWN... TAKE A PICTURE!!! NOT FUN!!
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