Why is ToT designed to ruin Arcane Mages?

90 Night Elf Mage
5535
Why is ToT designed to ruin Arcane mages? It feels like almost all the fights require tons of movement with lots of punishing things on the ground. Why is arcane spec designed to fight standing still if no such raid for that exists? Why did Blizzard design arcane around rune of power only to later design Pandaria to be all movement? It doesn't make sense to me.
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90 Night Elf Mage
5535
I think we could use a blue response regarding the mobility issues of arcane.
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100 Human Mage
17830
Arcane is fine.

There are fights that can take advantage of it with no problem. We're pure dps, we shouldn't be good on every fight with 1 spec.
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100 Human Mage
17200
You don't really seem to understand that Scorch, Inferno Blast, and Pyroblast are fire exclusive while he's talking about arcane mobility.

If I were to respond in a way similar to how you responded, this thread would be about destruction warlocks QQing with the currently understood 5.4 changes to KJC, and I'd tell you to spam Touch of Chaos.

Doesn't quite work, does it?
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90 Night Elf Mage
5535
Mages have been barking up that tree since the beginning of mop.

In other news, mages and locks will now have the same amount of mobility with the new KJC.

JK Scorch spam inferno blast, infinite pyroblasts


This has nothing to do with arcane spec.

Arcane is fine.

There are fights that can take advantage of it with no problem. We're pure dps, we shouldn't be good on every fight with 1 spec.


Not really. Almost every fight in ToT is extremelly unfriendly to arcane. Also, with Fire and Frost already doing better damage how can you justify going arcane with such punishing mechanics?
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100 Undead Warlock
20240
You don't really seem to understand that Scorch, Inferno Blast, and Pyroblast are fire exclusive while he's talking about arcane mobility.

If I were to respond in a way similar to how you responded, this thread would be about destruction warlocks QQing with the currently understood 5.4 changes to KJC, and I'd tell you to spam Touch of Chaos.

Doesn't quite work, does it?


It doesn't quite work because you'll eventually run out of Demonic Fury and cease being able to spam Touch of Chaos. I guess you can Fel Flame and Life Tap spam to build up more or something? Heh.
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90 Troll Warlock
11450
I don't know mages particularly well, but I do know that some very good mages (like Logoz on my realm) are playing Arcane on a number of fights now.

Even if things aren't perfect they are manageable (on some fights).
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100 Human Mage
17830


Not really. Almost every fight in ToT is extremelly unfriendly to arcane. Also, with Fire and Frost already doing better damage how can you justify going arcane with such punishing mechanics?


You can play arcane pretty fine on Jin'Rokh, Horridon, Council of Elders, Ji-Kun, Primordius, Iron Qon, Twin Consorts and even Lei Shen.

The other fights arcane can get by, with the exception of Durumu really. Make good use of your level 15 talent, and you're fine. Try picking up Ice Floes or blazing speed rather than PoM.

Arcane does need more mobility yeah, but it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.
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90 Night Elf Mage
5535


Not really. Almost every fight in ToT is extremelly unfriendly to arcane. Also, with Fire and Frost already doing better damage how can you justify going arcane with such punishing mechanics?


You can play arcane pretty fine on Jin'Rokh, Horridon, Council of Elders, Ji-Kun, Primordius, Iron Qon, Twin Consorts and even Lei Shen.

The other fights arcane can get by, with the exception of Durumu really. Make good use of your level 15 talent, and you're fine. Try picking up Ice Floes or blazing speed rather than PoM.

Arcane does need more mobility yeah, but it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.


Then how do you explain everyone and their mother being either fire or frost?
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100 Human Mage
17830
Arcane's cleave/aoe is much weaker than frost and fire, so any fight with an add you're disadvantaged by being arcane.

Also, many people just play fire because they prefer it. Frost is technically behind arcane on dps, but people may prefer the playstyle that of arcane, which was fun until 5.2, but subsequently nerfed into what it has been since 3.0.
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5 Blood Elf Warrior
0
I don't know mages particularly well, but I do know that some very good mages (like Logoz on my realm) are playing Arcane on a number of fights now.

Even if things aren't perfect they are manageable (on some fights).


When they've cleared all content and have heroic on farm, they switch specs to the lesser ones to alleviate boredom and try to rank #1 on the specs nobody plays because it's easy to do when nobody plays it. It's purely an epeen thing and has nothing to do with how good the spec is.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
Arcane is fine.

There are fights that can take advantage of it with no problem. We're pure dps, we shouldn't be good on every fight with 1 spec.


That's really not OK design for an RPG. Outside of bleeding edge racing-for-world-firsts guilds, people should be able to build their characters with any spec they please for whatever content they want to play. That's a difficult design goal to achieve, but the goal should never fall short of that.
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100 Worgen Mage
13375
As far as I can tell, arcane is only viable in ToT with top-end heroic gear ... around ievel 530-540 or so. And even then, arcane is only usable on certain fights. For probably 95% of raiding mages arcane isn't a viable choice.

Fire spec itself isn't viable till sufficient crit is obtained. Around ilevel 515-520 or so.

All raiding mages below that ilevel are pretty much pigeonholed into frost spec if they want to pull their weight. At low ilevels the other specs perform vastly worse than frost.

Mages really aren't in a good spot right now.
Edited by Mistwynd on 6/12/2013 2:44 PM PDT
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90 Troll Warlock
11450
I don't know mages particularly well, but I do know that some very good mages (like Logoz on my realm) are playing Arcane on a number of fights now.

Even if things aren't perfect they are manageable (on some fights).


When they've cleared all content and have heroic on farm, they switch specs to the lesser ones to alleviate boredom and try to rank #1 on the specs nobody plays because it's easy to do when nobody plays it. It's purely an epeen thing and has nothing to do with how good the spec is.

His guild doesn't have public logs.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
Yeah....if Arcane were so horrible, it wouldn't be one of the top specs in heroic raiding.

The Mage class has some wonky scaling crap going on where the specs see massive ups and downs in comparison at different gear levels, moreso than any other Pure.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/12/2013 3:09 PM PDT
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90 Troll Warlock
11450
Fortunately for us there are other guilds that do have public logs, though.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-8cmmdezczx6oppva/sum/damageDone/?s=219&e=395#Blatty

Blatty of Method playing Arcane on a number of fights. It does fairly well even if it doesn't beat Fire on every fight.
Edited by Argument on 6/12/2013 3:08 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
06/12/2013 07:04 AMPosted by Lhivera
Outside of bleeding edge racing-for-world-firsts guilds, people should be able to build their characters with any spec they please for whatever content they want to play.


Outside of bleeding edge racing-for-world-firsts guilds, doing 2% less DPS than another spec has far less impact on whether or not you wipe than your skill at managing mechanics, switching to the right targets, and similar player skill issues.

Although for the record, I think that every DPS spec should be as close as possible to even on as many fights as possible, whether it belongs to a pure class or not. But honestly, small numbers differences aren't going to have a substantial impact on the play experience of at least 95% of the playerbase. Unless it's via some sheep benching them because they heard that spec parses 2% lower.
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1 Human Mage
0
One of Arcane's fundamental failings as a spec, is that there is no single scenario, situation, or effect that it does better than any of the other two mage specs.

That is, for every situation, the Arcane spec will be worse relative to either of the two specs.

Historically, Arcane was the 'burst' spec, with the ability to drop incredible amounts of zomgdamage upon command. During the 'homogenization of the classes' back in beta and with the new talent system, that aspect was one of the first that was stripped from the spec (and given to frost, incidentally).

It is not even a situation where you can say "In scenario X fire is best, but Arcane is at least better than Frost". No such 'X' exists.

If you want burst? Frost is strongest, with fire a close second, and Arcane last.
AoE? Fire is closely tied with Frost, with Arcane, last again.
Control? Frost first, then fire, last Arcane.
Pure single target? Fire wins, Frost second and Arcane last.
Cleave? Fire, the frost, then Arcane
Negative impact of bad play with level 90 talents? Fire + Frost, then last, Arcane.
Playstyle? Arcane is considered one of the most boring specs to play, even by the mages themselves.
etc etc and you can go on in this way for almost any situation in the game, both through pvp and pve.

Now granted, for some things the difference is not massive, but the point remains, there is no single thing you can point to (outside of gimmicks and bugs) and concretely state that Arcane is even second, let alone better than the other two specs.

The other issue with Arcane, is that throughout its lifetime in MoP, it has constantly been plagued by what I like to call "abominations of gameplay".

These are situations where the spec was being played 'outside its intended parameters'. (i.e. not how it was meant to be played)
One well known example of this is the playstyle (that was patched out) affectionately called "scorch camping" by the mages.
Even today, Arcane is going through a similar phase of "abominations of gameplay" where due to the rather (abominably?) poorly balanced state of the mage bombs, Arcane is basically turned into an abusive "NT DoT spam" (a retarded tab-dot spec). Now, obviously this is not how Arcane is meant to be played (since it is not a DoT spec), but mages are leveraging Arcane's mastery to take maximal advantage of this temporary imbalanced state the mage bombs are in.

The Arcane mages that people point to today as being "high end mages playing Arcane" are in fact, just doing what I stated in the previous paragraph. As soon as the mage bombs will be nerfed (and rest assured, they will), Arcane will fade back into obscurity again.

The core of the issue is with the spec itself though.
Its punishing immobility, its mediocrity in every situation, its lack of engaging gameplay, are all only symptoms of the root problem that lies within the mechanics of the spec.

And all of this is without even touching on its complete failure in PvP.

For all intents and purposes, the Arcane spec is lost for MoP. It has been since beta. The only real hope is 6.0, where, hopefully the next time round, Arcane will emerge more favorably from the beta process.

With all that now said, I do think that the Arcane spec has one last role to play in the story of MoP. I feel that attention will turn to the spec again and it will come under the spotlight one last time before the end; as people struggle with the larger issues within the game, i.e. solving the 'should all casters be mobile?' or the 'does artillery caster design even work?' questions.
Arcane will serve as an example, and will be thrown back and forth in the discussions to come, while not only magekind, but all of casterkind attempts to answer those more 'deeper' questions of design.

But yea.. ToT (and MoP itself) was not kind to the Arcanists. Not kind at all, unfortunately. :(
Edited by Zomgdps on 6/12/2013 6:31 PM PDT
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