Why is ToT designed to ruin Arcane Mages?

90 Human Mage
11150
Can't we go one patch or pre-patch without mages whining about something? TWO good specs to play and still we whine? That's better than some other classes get. Suck it up or roll another class. Christ.
Edited by Amalgamus on 6/12/2013 8:51 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Mage
5535
Can't we go one patch or pre-patch without mages whining about something? TWO good specs to play and still we whine? That's better than some other classes get. Suck it up or roll another class. Christ.


So it's totally fine if arcane is a mess? Sorry but that logic is terrible. Why can't frost/arcane be the two dominate ones. It's not fair, especially when its by design.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
clearly the OP is trolling.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/60/default/
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13665
In other news, mages and locks will now have the same amount of mobility with the new KJC.

JK Scorch spam inferno blast, infinite pyroblasts


Just kidding, demo doesn't need to cast.
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90 Worgen Mage
12565
clearly the OP is trolling.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/60/default/


This right here is exhibit A on why linking Raidbots can be bad/misleading.

The reason why you see this is because a lot of the best geared mages in the world have finished progression. They got bored and decided to try Arcane for the change of pace. Up until the last few weeks, there were NO numbers for Arcane because nobody was playing it. Of course the best geared/skilled mages in the world are gonna pull good numbers. It is HIGHLY skewed and in no way represents even the average heroic raider.
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100 Human Mage
14280
This right here is exhibit A on why linking Raidbots can be bad/misleading.

The reason why you see this is because a lot of the best geared mages in the world have finished progression. They got bored and decided to try Arcane for the change of pace. Up until the last few weeks, there were NO numbers for Arcane because nobody was playing it. Of course the best geared/skilled mages in the world are gonna pull good numbers. It is HIGHLY skewed and in no way represents even the average heroic raider.


Normals show the same thing:
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/all/14/60/p80/
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1 Human Mage
0
This right here is exhibit A on why linking Raidbots can be bad/misleading.

The reason why you see this is because a lot of the best geared mages in the world have finished progression. They got bored and decided to try Arcane for the change of pace. Up until the last few weeks, there were NO numbers for Arcane because nobody was playing it. Of course the best geared/skilled mages in the world are gonna pull good numbers. It is HIGHLY skewed and in no way represents even the average heroic raider.


Normals show the same thing:
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/all/14/60/p80/


A small excerpt from my (admittedly) large wall of text from page 1 of this thread (its worth reading btw).

The other issue with Arcane, is that throughout its lifetime in MoP, it has constantly been plagued by what I like to call "abominations of gameplay".

These are situations where the spec was being played 'outside its intended parameters'. (i.e. not how it was meant to be played)
One well known example of this is the playstyle (that was patched out) affectionately called "scorch camping" by the mages.
Even today, Arcane is going through a similar phase of "abominations of gameplay" where due to the rather (abominably?) poorly balanced state of the mage bombs, Arcane is basically turned into an abusive "NT DoT spam" (a retarded tab-dot spec). Now, obviously this is not how Arcane is meant to be played (since it is not a DoT spec), but mages are leveraging Arcane's mastery to take maximal advantage of this temporary imbalanced state the mage bombs are in.

The Arcane mages that people point to today as being "high end mages playing Arcane" are in fact, just doing what I stated in the previous paragraph. As soon as the mage bombs will be nerfed (and rest assured, they will), Arcane will fade back into obscurity again.

Take note of the last paragraph.

The results are skewed, as a combination of the point Methusula makes, as well as the point in my last paragraph.

The bombs will be nerfed (just as scorch camping was). They are not intended to be this powerful, and Arcane's mastery just abuses this OP state they are in.
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90 Worgen Mage
12565
This right here is exhibit A on why linking Raidbots can be bad/misleading.

The reason why you see this is because a lot of the best geared mages in the world have finished progression. They got bored and decided to try Arcane for the change of pace. Up until the last few weeks, there were NO numbers for Arcane because nobody was playing it. Of course the best geared/skilled mages in the world are gonna pull good numbers. It is HIGHLY skewed and in no way represents even the average heroic raider.


Normals show the same thing:
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/all/14/60/p80/


/facepalm.

Your point? It is still unreliable. look at the yellow icon that says: " This icon means a spec constitutes less than 1% of the samples seen and the values may not be statistically reliable. These specs are hidden by default." Do you think that once it goes above 1% it's magically reliable? There is still going to be a bias influencing the data.
Edited by Methusula on 6/13/2013 12:09 PM PDT
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100 Human Mage
14280
/facepalm.

Your point? It is still unreliable. look at the yellow icon that says: " This icon means a spec constitutes less than 1% of the samples seen and the values may not be statistically reliable. These specs are hidden by default." Do you think that once it goes above 1% it's magically reliable? There is still going to be a bias influencing the data.


This makes the first time I've ever seen that argument used to claim a spec is artificially inflated. That argument works for specs at the bottom and is proven when a perceived nerf on a top spec suddenly makes the underrepresented one jump up substantially even when it got no changed. This happened when combustion was nerfed and frost suddenly moved up several places with no changes.

The people who have cleared normals aren't going arcane for a change of pace and topping their old fire parses like you claim the heroic parses are. They're the ones who are progressing in heroic and generally staying fire because that's the perceived top spec. Fire may own the Top Ranks due to crazy luck with rng, but arcane is very competitive in the current tier. Even though it does suffer from poor design (inflated bombs due to mastery) and can be a royal pain in the !@# on some fights.
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59 Goblin Death Knight
190


You can play arcane pretty fine on Jin'Rokh, Horridon, Council of Elders, Ji-Kun, Primordius, Iron Qon, Twin Consorts and even Lei Shen.

The other fights arcane can get by, with the exception of Durumu really. Make good use of your level 15 talent, and you're fine. Try picking up Ice Floes or blazing speed rather than PoM.

Arcane does need more mobility yeah, but it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.


Then how do you explain everyone and their mother being either fire or frost?


Because no matter how well they try and balance a class, one spec will always be on the bottom.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
This right here is exhibit A on why linking Raidbots can be bad/misleading.

The reason why you see this is because a lot of the best geared mages in the world have finished progression. They got bored and decided to try Arcane for the change of pace. Up until the last few weeks, there were NO numbers for Arcane because nobody was playing it. Of course the best geared/skilled mages in the world are gonna pull good numbers. It is HIGHLY skewed and in no way represents even the average heroic raider.


lol i highly doubt this is true considering: http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25H/all/14/60/samples/

Arcane is simming higher than the other 2

Arcane is doing more actual dps than the other 2 with fire have more than 8x the representation.

All signs point to? Arcane is fine.
Edited by Fayte on 6/14/2013 7:52 AM PDT
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100 Human Mage
14280
Arcane is simming higher than the other 2


Sims are worthless for comparing specs against each other. Even the developers have said this. Everything else you said is true though. Arcane is fine numbers wise, even if the current design is terrible.
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1 Human Mage
0

Arcane is simming higher than the other 2

Arcane is doing more actual dps than the other 2 with fire have more than 8x the representation.

All signs point to? Arcane is fine.

I have been tracking your posts on the forums for over a week now, and at every point you are on nothing more than a crusade to get mages nerfed and/or to 'keep mages down'.

You continuously assert things, baseless things. You misinterpret data and skew its analysis to your own agenda. And you, numerous times, just plain old make stuff up.

If I didn't know any better, I would surmise you are nothing more than the alt of a certain MVP who has also been plaguing the mage class.

At every step, your arguments are torn down and your data rebuked, yet you still do not budge.
So instead of taking the approach that many others have taken, in trying to get you to stop trolling using facts and logic, I will try something different...

You are vehemently asserting that mages (more specifically, Arcane mages) are perfectly optimal.

So I tell you what we will do:

The PTR has begun, and on the PTR you can make premade toons that are identical to each other (just so you do not blame gear).

AFter that, you can pick a fight, ANY fight. Any single raid fight in the game of your choosing, a fight where you will play an arcane specced mage.

I will play any spec of any class that you wish (I will also make a premade toon - just so you cannot blame 'gear'). And you and me will have a little competition. We will see what is more optimal. And better yet, I can even youtube it to show anyone else.

You are so confident in your belief that Arcane is an optimal spec, then fine, prove it.

I am sick of people on these forums making claims that they can not only not justify, but claims that they are unwilling to put their money where their mouth is.

I am Zomgdps and I will be on anastarian, broxigar and narlak realms of the PTR.

This is my public challenge to you Sir. Do you have the balls to back up your bullsh!te? Or are you really just like the MVP, who runs whenever challenged, only to spew your BS elsewhere.

I am Zomgdps, and I will be waiting. >:)
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91 Undead Warlock
10800
Mages have been barking up that tree since the beginning of mop.

In other news, mages and locks will now have the same amount of mobility with the new KJC.

JK Scorch spam inferno blast, infinite pyroblasts


I laughed, hard because it is so damn true.
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
Arcane is fine.

There are fights that can take advantage of it with no problem. We're pure dps, we shouldn't be good on every fight with 1 spec.


That's really not OK design for an RPG. Outside of bleeding edge racing-for-world-firsts guilds, people should be able to build their characters with any spec they please for whatever content they want to play.


And you can play any spec you want depending on the content you can do. Just don't expect to be as competitive with it. The OP is an LFR hero. He can go choo choo as arcane as much as he wants.

That's a difficult design goal to achieve, but the goal should never fall short of that.


That's an impossible design goal to achieve*

Name one time anyone has ever stepped back and looked at WoW and said "Yeah every class is perfectly balanced for raid content, and you can play any spec you want without an issue".

Specs dying, and coming back from the grave on a tier to tier basis is nothing new.
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1 Human Mage
0

Name one time anyone has ever stepped back and looked at WoW and said "Yeah every class is perfectly balanced for raid content

Right now.

I can effectively do end game raiding on my lock with any spec I choose. My spec selection for my lock is based purely on my own preference, since all three specs are optimally performant.

gg
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
06/14/2013 10:48 AMPosted by Zomgdps
I have been tracking your posts on the forums for over a week now, and at every point you are on nothing more than a crusade to get mages nerfed and/or to 'keep mages down'.


Stalker much. and no i don't bring mages down. i have mage that im not afraid to show him unlike a certain person.

06/14/2013 10:48 AMPosted by Zomgdps
You continuously assert things, baseless things. You misinterpret data and skew its analysis to your own agenda. And you, numerous times, just plain old make stuff up.


i haven't skewed any data but sure go ahead make stuff up to prove your baseless argument

At every step, your arguments are torn down and your data rebuked, yet you still do not budge.
So instead of taking the approach that many others have taken, in trying to get you to stop trolling using facts and logic, I will try something different...


my data haven't been rebunked again you are talking out your rear end.

You are vehemently asserting that mages (more specifically, Arcane mages) are perfectly optimal.

So I tell you what we will do:

The PTR has begun, and on the PTR you can make premade toons that are identical to each other (just so you do not blame gear).

AFter that, you can pick a fight, ANY fight. Any single raid fight in the game of your choosing, a fight where you will play an arcane specced mage.

I will play any spec of any class that you wish (I will also make a premade toon - just so you cannot blame 'gear'). And you and me will have a little competition. We will see what is more optimal. And better yet, I can even youtube it to show anyone else.

You are so confident in your belief that Arcane is an optimal spec, then fine, prove it.


basically a crybaby. I said arcane is fine for some fights its optimal and for some its not. you can take what i said and skew it to the extreme all day long. fact is Arcane is fine.

You are so confident in your belief that Arcane is an optimal spec, then fine, prove it.

I am sick of people on these forums making claims that they can not only not justify, but claims that they are unwilling to put their money where their mouth is.

I am Zomgdps and I will be on anastarian, broxigar and narlak realms of the PTR.

This is my public challenge to you Sir. Do you have the balls to back up your bullsh!te? Or are you really just like the MVP, who runs whenever challenged, only to spew your BS elsewhere.

I am Zomgdps, and I will be waiting. >:)


i don't have to prove anything to you. You are the one saying arcane is bad with no data supporting it.
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1 Human Mage
0
Oooh, looks like someone a lil scared :P

You sound pretty scared Fayte.. what's wrong? Think you might lose?
Hahaha...

Its ok man, don't worry. Your secret's safe with me ;)
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
Oooh, looks like someone a lil scared :P

You sound pretty scared Fayte.. what's wrong? Think you might lose?
Hahaha...

Its ok man, don't worry. Your secret's safe with me ;


Still haven't gave me a reason why i should waste my time on you but you have given me plenty of reasons why i shouldn't.
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
Right now.

I can effectively do end game raiding on my lock with any spec I choose. My spec selection for my lock is based purely on my own preference, since all three specs are optimally performant.

gg


Good luck doing Tortos as affliction, Council as Destro, Horridon as Demo...etc. Any guild with serious progression will require the warlock to switch specs on a regular basis.

Also, I said every class. Not a single class and their specs. There are multiple classes out there that have all three specs fairly balanced to varying degrees, but in the grand scheme of balancing there are quite a few specs that are DoA for raiding, and then come back stronger the next tier. Sometimes scaling reasons, sometimes fight dependent reasons.
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