Why is ToT designed to ruin Arcane Mages?

1 Human Mage
0
There are multiple classes out there that have all three specs fairly balanced to varying degrees, but in the grand scheme of balancing there are quite a few specs that are DoA for raiding

And I believe what the OP is lamenting, is why Arcane needs to be one of those DOAs.

That being said, there are actually more classes in the game that have all three (or four) of their specs completely heroic viable, than there are classes that are not.

Let us not forget, for all intents and purposes, all 'hybrids' are fully viable.

That is the greater point being made here. The point at the core of the OP's complaint is this:

Why the exceptional amount of effort into making all specs almost all classes viable while not putting in the same amount of effort into mages, hunters, and rogues (who are, imho, the only classes in the game who do not have spec parity).

Your point was that it is not a possible goal to achieve. My point is that it has already almost been achieved across 8 of the 11 classes in the game.

Sure, "mages can just spec fire", but that is still not an excuse. Why can I say "oh yea, boomkins can just spec resto if they want to raid?", and don't give me that "its a different role" bullsh!te.

The fact is, if I am a mage, rogue, or hunter and want to raid, I cannot do so with my spec of choice unless it happens to magically line up with what Blizzard has "blessed" as the spec for that class.
None of the other classes need to do that.

That is the imbalance.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
Council as Destro


Yeah, Havoc just suuuuuuucks for that one.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
06/14/2013 08:11 PMPosted by Quard
Council as Destro


Yeah, Havoc just suuuuuuucks for that one.

More in reference to Heroic Council where Demonology's multi target (especially with UVLS) and on demand burst or Affliction's constant and consistent multidot strength are massive assests and make the fight greatly easier than occasional cleave Destruction provides.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/14/2013 8:17 PM PDT
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100 Human Warlock
18010
More in reference to Heroic Council where Demonology's multi target (especially with UVLS) and on demand burst or Affliction's constant and consistent multidot strength are massive assests and make the fight greatly easier than occasional cleave Destruction provides.

Pretty much. Havoc is burst cleave, its sustained cleave is pretty mediocre, especially in comparison to its compatriots.
Edited by Serinicas on 6/15/2013 12:08 AM PDT
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Can't we go one patch or pre-patch without mages whining about something? TWO good specs to play and still we whine? That's better than some other classes get. Suck it up or roll another class. Christ.


Both Fire and Frost have their own set of problems.

Also, being passionate about one's spec or class does not constitute "whining'.
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90 Human Warlock
12770
From my understanding arcane is a turret. Also in BiS gear arcane blows stuff up. Badly.
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From my understanding arcane is a turret. Also in BiS gear arcane blows stuff up. Badly.


Based on a loophole/ abusive gameplay of spamming NT whether or not there is a new target to fish for procs . . . from a design stand point the spec is in a very bad spot right now.

And yes, its always been a turret spec-- but with the design of ToT that style of gameplay has been made almost completely obsolete. If Blizz wants turret casting to persist going forward they need to design around it being able to happen in at least a decent number of encounters, not the spastic move all the time that MoP has been.

Mages have a lot of issues all stemming from three main areas--

1. Scaling-- fire scales too well, but isn't competitive till higher gear scores, arcane is worse in this regards than fire (at high gear is even more betterer, but takes an even higher gear level to be able to be played at all) while frost scales so poorly that once its possible to go fire most mages can't justify staying frost. . .

2. Tier 90-- a million words has been said about how awful these talents are, and they really truly are.

3. General lack of design attention. The devs slapped together mages new talent tree and said "that's it, we're done" early on in MoP beta, then ignored input about the rest of the way while spending all their time on Warlocks and hybrids. . . mages have been pretty clearly left behind this expansion.
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90 Troll Warlock
11450
1. Scaling-- fire scales too well, but isn't competitive till higher gear scores, arcane is worse in this regards than fire (at high gear is even more betterer, but takes an even higher gear level to be able to be played at all) while frost scales so poorly that once its possible to go fire most mages can't justify staying frost. . .


This just makes no sense to me whatsoever, when I see well geared Mages (like Logoz and Blatty) playing Arcane because it actually is better at some things. Players like to ramble on about scaling, but they don't seem to have much evidence (although the case is much stronger for Frost's lack of scaling).
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This just makes no sense to me whatsoever, when I see well geared Mages (like Logoz and Blatty) playing Arcane because it actually is better at some things. Players like to ramble on about scaling, but they don't seem to have much evidence (although the case is much stronger for Frost's lack of scaling).


The question isn't well geared mage like Blatty and Logoz. The question is qhat can Arcane do at an average player's I level. And the answer is "less than frost" before 515 and "less than Arcane" from 515-530 or so and only becomes "about the same as fire" at 530-535 or higher.

And most of us can't completely reforge between each encounter to make the completely opposite needs of Fire and Arcane viable to swap back and forth on an encounter by encounter basis worth it. . . so being acceptable in a handful of fights and completely unusable on others isn't an ok place to be overall as a spec. . .
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100 Orc Mage
12650
Arcane has been climbing up those charts from N into H for weeks now, Arcane will scale just as hard with mastery as Fire will with crit. Now with these 5.4 tier sets it looks promising.

- I agree the arcane spec needs a over haul its viable at heroic ilvl. Just certain specs will pull ahead on certain fights.
It's not about skill for arcane it's about gear much like the case with fire atleast skill won't come into play till the proper itemization is attained.
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100 Human Mage
16075
Tortos and Durumu are arcane's worst fights. Every mage spec sucks at effectively dpsing Tortos (lol jk bat aoe) and Durumu just has too much movement if you're assigned red beam and during disintegration beam. Coupled with the fact that combustion lines up perfectly with every single wall phase means that Arcane will never compete on this fight.

Every other fight you have a shot. Fire might be a bit better for this (all comes down to RNG combustion spreading), frost might be a bit better for that (haven't tried it since week 1 msv), but arcane is definitely viable overall.
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100 Human Hunter
12735
06/12/2013 09:38 PMPosted by Leviathans
Can't we go one patch or pre-patch without mages whining about something? TWO good specs to play and still we whine? That's better than some other classes get. Suck it up or roll another class. Christ.


So it's totally fine if arcane is a mess? Sorry but that logic is terrible. Why can't frost/arcane be the two dominate ones. It's not fair, especially when its by design.


Yes it's totally fine if arcane sucks (by sucks you mean still better than most but not as good as the other specs).
MM sucks, Ret sucks, ele sucks many other classes have had to deal with !@#$ty dps and mechanics all xpac, suck it up and play another one of your top of the meter specs ffs.

Least you don't have to gear up another class because all of your specs are subpar or play another role because the role you want to play is garbage.

To the OP:
Think back to the days when you couldn't cast while moving. Guess what, you had to move during some fights back then too.
Edited by Triggey on 6/19/2013 9:43 AM PDT
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100 Troll Death Knight
10130
A class spec isn't viable?

Call the police.
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88 Undead Warrior
10365
To the original OP: How dare you request some attention be paid to mages when there are still 4-5 FoTM Warlock re-rollers out there that may not be happy with KJC still.

You know that nothing else can be addressed by the Dev team until every single Warlock is happy and blizz has groveled and apologized long enough for daring to attempt to fix a completely overpowered talent.

Come on guy, get with the times. If you aren't a warlock you don't matter to blizz.
Edited by Moonglum on 6/20/2013 3:52 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
6165
@ Moonglum. Really? A completely overpowered talent? You can't be serious. Let me explain something to you. You do realize that KJC isn't OP. It's NOT. So you get a couple of casts off while moving. Big whoop. Within 2 casted spells you're moving so slow that you have to stop casting anyways to make sure your speed is up to be able to get out of danger. For once in a very long time Warlocks are in a good place. We're not gods, we're not OP. We're actually good at doing what we're supposed to do. This lock was my first toon and I started playing WoW a little bit before BC came out. I've been around through all the ups and downs of Warlocks, we desperately needed some attention and finally Blizz helped us out. I highly doubt they're not gonna do the same with the other classes who need it. No I wasn't happy with the changes they came out with for KJC. I don't want yet another unneeded button, another extra cd to watch. There was nothing wrong or OP with the original KJC design. Face it, turret casting is becoming obsolete as it should. Other casting classes are getting more move and cast abilities as well, not just locks. Mages, have one, albeit it's a CD and will probably be changed to passive eventually, shaman have one. Etc. I don't see how it could be considered a threat to melee players in raids. Cause guess what? Yall are our only real valid defense in raiding. lol We need yall to hold aggro, hold that defensive line. Don't get butthurt warrior, we're not gonna replace you.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
To the original OP: How dare you request some attention be paid to mages when there are still 4-5 FoTM Warlock re-rollers out there that may not be happy with KJC still.

You know that nothing else can be addressed by the Dev team until every single Warlock is happy and blizz has groveled and apologized long enough for daring to attempt to fix a completely overpowered talent.

Come on guy, get with the times. If you aren't a warlock you don't matter to blizz.


some day you will get over your jealousy towards warlocks and there are those who will listen to your troubles and help you deal with them.
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92 Worgen Hunter
8745
Mages have two of the most powerful specs in the game currently. Excuse us if we're all laughing uncontrollably at you making the claim one of those specs is broken and useless.
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Mages have two of the most powerful specs in the game currently. Excuse us if we're all laughing uncontrollably at you making the claim one of those specs is broken and useless.


Damage is a mask of actual issues. And quite frankly I'd prefer to have middling to crap DPS at this juncture because at least it would result in said issues getting fixed more quickly.
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One person's opinion against a giant wall of opposition. Despite there being some merit to your statement and idea, I doubt that it would be well received by the mage community.

Good idea but with some volatile consequences.

Similar thing happened to Rets:

Some said nerf burst and buff sustained. Blizz said sure. The community was outraged and called for no such nerfs.


Yes, I forgot there was a segment of the population that believes damage = fun.
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