PTR 5.4 | Dk's - Database/Discussion.

90 Orc Death Knight
10645
New build:

Build 17153:

  • Blood four piece now requires 10 HS/RS/DC/SR/BB for one charge.
  • Unholy four piece now extends ghoul length in time by 2.0 seconds as opposed to 1.5 seconds.


  • Disappointing to see them extend the ghoul length in time by so little as it won't have a large impact on dps regardless. It would need near 100% up time in order for it to actually contribute significantly towards damage. Even with near 100% up time, this four piece also constitutes poor play.
    Edited by Athdeux on 7/3/2013 10:45 AM PDT
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    90 Troll Death Knight
    9575
    Interesting to see the CD reduction trinket also benefiting along side with the four piece for frost dks making frost dks even better next tier. Frost dks are looking pretty good for next tier.


    Probably as good as unholy was in regards to the interactions with the Feather.

    Which is to say, cross your fingers and hope for good loot drops >_> Or else be prepared to be marginal.
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    90 Orc Death Knight
    16740
    Seeing as how frost is a bit underwhelming right now, I'd like to see soul reaper dealing frost damage for frost spec as opposed to shadow damage so it would be affected by mastery.
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    90 Dwarf Death Knight
    6340
    The argument everyone brings up then is "frost damage will have to be lowered If soul reaper does shadow frost damage" . Which may be true but right now frost is bringing up the rear, it needs something. Maybe have obliterate affected by mastery,idk but it needs something
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    90 Orc Death Knight
    16140
    The buff to the Unholy 4 piece bonus does very little. Conceptually, it is still a badly designed bonus for the simple fact that it promotes bad play. I'm really hoping they can come up with something better that doesn't remove an element of skill.
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    90 Orc Death Knight
    10645
    New datamined Glyphs: http://www.wowhead.com/news=215959/5-4-ptr-build-17153-legendary-cloaks-tier-16-armor-models-glyphs-and-more

    Glyphs:

  • Glyph of Festering Blood (NYI): Blood Boil will now treat all targets as though they have Blood Plague or Frost Fever applied.
  • Glyph of Regenerative Magic (NYI): If Anti-Magic Shell expires after its full duration, the cooldown is reduced by up to 50%, based on the amount of damage absorbed.
  • Glyph of Swift Death (NYI): The haste effect granted by Soul Reaper now also increases your movement speed by X% for the duration.
  • Glyph of the Long Winter (NYI): The effect of your Horn of Winter now lasts for 1 hour.
  • Glyph of the Loud Horn (NYI): Your Horn of Winter now generates an additional 10 Runic Power, but the cooldown is increased by X sec.
  • Glyph of the Skeleton (NYI): Your Raise Dead spell summons a skeleton instead of a ghoul.
  • Edited by Athdeux on 7/3/2013 1:37 PM PDT
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    90 Orc Death Knight
    10645
    DK T16 visual: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1316425-Death-Knight-Tier-16
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    90 Orc Death Knight
    13905
    Pretty disappointing that the horn glyphs miss the point of what we really need, baseline 1 hour no NP horn, and that the BB glyph really just does what Roiling Blood should do in the first place, spread the diseases before it calculates BB damage.
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    90 Human Death Knight
    12200
    Seeing as how frost is a bit underwhelming right now, I'd like to see soul reaper dealing frost damage for frost spec as opposed to shadow damage so it would be affected by mastery.


    Yeah frost (specifically 2h) needs a bit of a boost so it's a bit better with secondaries. Something like your KM Critical cause crit% of your obliterate or frost strike as a frost dot on the target.

    But still, hopefully with these bonuses it will pan out.
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    90 Human Death Knight
    12540
    Disappointing to see them extend the ghoul length in time by so little as it won't have a large impact on dps regardless. It would need near 100% up time in order for it to actually contribute significantly towards damage. Even with near 100% up time, this four piece also constitutes poor play.


    The buff to the Unholy 4 piece bonus does very little. Conceptually, it is still a badly designed bonus for the simple fact that it promotes bad play. I'm really hoping they can come up with something better that doesn't remove an element of skill.


    It will be a shame if the current design of the bonus goes live. It will be an pain in the !@#$ if it is powerful enough that we have to take it :/
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    90 Human Death Knight
    12440
    07/03/2013 06:17 PMPosted by Holsety
    Seeing as how frost is a bit underwhelming right now, I'd like to see soul reaper dealing frost damage for frost spec as opposed to shadow damage so it would be affected by mastery.


    Yeah frost (specifically 2h) needs a bit of a boost so it's a bit better with secondaries. Something like your KM Critical cause crit% of your obliterate or frost strike as a frost dot on the target.

    But still, hopefully with these bonuses it will pan out.


    I know it would alter the conception of how Killing Machine works but to get 2H frost to work better with mastery

    "Killing Machine no longer provides an auto critical, it is now a Chaos Bolt like dot over 3 seconds that deals 100% of the damage of the Obliterate as frost damage"

    Edit : Also Unholy tier bonuses still crappy and boring.
    Edited by Ryudaraku on 7/3/2013 9:04 PM PDT
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    90 Orc Death Knight
    10645
    July 3rd


    New Build -- 17153:

  • Blood four piece now requires 10 HS/RS/DC/SR/BB for one charge.
  • Unholy four piece now extends ghoul length in time by 2.0 seconds as opposed to 1.5 seconds.


  • Euliat has done some math with the updated version of the four piece: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1308755-5-4-PTR-DK-Changes?p=21646170&viewfull=1#post21646170

    More math: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1308755-5-4-PTR-DK-Changes?p=21647933&viewfull=1#post21647933

    response: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1308755-5-4-PTR-DK-Changes?p=21648262&viewfull=1#post21648262

    Response to that: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1308755-5-4-PTR-DK-Changes?p=21650187&viewfull=1#post21650187

    Summary:

    D/c frequency: DPS gain (Length in time in which Transformed ghoul lasts.)

  • 3.5s : +1.65%, 70s [original]
  • 4.0s : +1.40%, 60s
  • 4.5s : +1.21%, 54s
  • 5.0s : +1.07%, 50s
  • 5.5s : +0.95%, 47s


  • New datamined Glyphs: http://www.wowhead.com/news=215959/5-4-ptr-build-17153-legendary-cloaks-tier-16-armor-models-glyphs-and-more

    Glyphs:

  • Glyph of Festering Blood (NYI): Blood Boil will now treat all targets as though they have Blood Plague or Frost Fever applied.
  • Glyph of Regenerative Magic (NYI): If Anti-Magic Shell expires after its full duration, the cooldown is reduced by up to 50%, based on the amount of damage absorbed.
  • Glyph of Swift Death (NYI): The haste effect granted by Soul Reaper now also increases your movement speed by X% for the duration.
  • Glyph of the Long Winter (NYI): The effect of your Horn of Winter now lasts for 1 hour.
  • Glyph of the Loud Horn (NYI): Your Horn of Winter now generates an additional 10 Runic Power, but the cooldown is increased by X sec.
  • Glyph of the Skeleton (NYI): Your Raise Dead spell summons a skeleton instead of a ghoul.


  • DK T16 visual: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1316425-Death-Knight-Tier-16


    Summary for the 3rd. Basically the change to the DK four piece for unholy wasn't that huge and the dps gain is still low. Along side with it's mechanical disadvantages/problems.
    Edited by Athdeux on 7/3/2013 9:12 PM PDT
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    90 Orc Death Knight
    16325
    Think the only way the 4 piece would be good for UH is if potentially gave us 100% uptime on our ghoul. That or death coils made DURING dark transformation also increased the damage your ghoul does for the duration of that dark transformation. Obviously there could be a cap and the number could be anything (5-10% per DC made). Just something, right now it's a fairly underwhelming 4 piece given that we typically pool death coils prior to DT falling off anyway.

    Would much rather the UH 4 piece extend disease duration by a couple seconds for each death coil you launch. They might as well embrace the FB playstyle for this tier before they likely change it for the next expansion. This allows more scourge strikes and less FS, which would mean more damage.

    Frost needs the chaos bolt treatment in some fashion to help fix some scaling issues. That or crit damage needs to be implemented as a stat. Crit damage would probably be easy to incorporate in the game without PvP repercussions as well if they just made it so it didn't work against players.

    Have a feeling they will probably remove the KM SR from frost next patch and just add it baseline, there isn't a good reason why it's not like that right now. That way they can leave the set bonus at just allowing us to SR at 45%, and that way making the jump to the new 2 piece wouldn't be a big deal at all.

    Even at 10 charges the DK tanking 2 piece is still very good. As it is right now I can easily get 50 heart strikes, BB, death strikes and runestrikes in per minute. Meaning after the first bone shield your next would have what, 11 charges? With a 2.5 second ICD between charges the minimum amount of time we would have our 20% DR up would be 27.5 seconds. That's with absolutely zero avoidance and without any attack being fully absorbed, which in practice is very unrealistic. It's safe to expect in moderate damage circumstances that we will likely be approaching or achieving close to 100% bone shield up-time, which is huge.
    Edited by Gròmmash on 7/3/2013 11:29 PM PDT
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    90 Blood Elf Death Knight
    13860
    Festering blood will break leveling completely with how retarded blood boils damage already is, getting to skip the disease step just makes it stronger. At max level I don't see myself using it as a major at all, due to other options.

    Regenerative magic I'm going to assume gives you less cooldown return when more of our shield gets consumed, which makes it interesting as some arena teams actually switch off the dk the second he pops ams and it consumes virtually no damage, getting a 30ish second cd on ams for these teams is a big deal, also it doesn't synergize with the current AMS glyph, which I actually think is a good thing, gives me something else to play around with in the slot.

    Swift death, better stack with death's advance(passive) + unholy presence, if so I could be in love, I already have very high soul reaper uptime (haste buff wise) and find that the only thing I want is to catch that guy and share with him some of my soul reaper love.

    Long winter is useless to me, I press HoW more often than once every 2 minutes for the resource gain, the 5 minute buff in MoP was already overkill for me, but it costs a glyph slot and it's undispellable anyway so someone who isn't used to maintaining HoW could gain from it I guess.

    Loud Horn sounds decent, reduces the GCD strain ever so slightly, might end up being a pve dps glyph for me, would love it as a minor for pvp but couldn't see myself taking it as a major (which it most likly is).

    Skeleton, I'm surprised it took this long, but the question remains, which? the northrend shakey skeleton, the traditional skelly warrior who plays with his own head or the noggenfogger skelly, I assume the northrend one as it's the highest detail.
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    90 Worgen Death Knight
    12305
    As has been mentioned by others, the biggest issue with frost DKs is that their secondary stats, instead of synergizing with each other and increasing in value as you gain more of them, are actually detrimental to each other. The biggest problem is with crit. Since crit is wasted for every obliterate or frost strike that already would have been a crit due to killing machine, the more killing machine procs you get the worse a stat crit becomes. Furthermore, crit hardly benefits howling blast; thus for dual wield in particular, which gets frequent killing machine procs from dual-wielding, crit is practically worthless. Crit scaling gets worse and worse as you gain haste. This problem is basically removed for unholy.

    The second issue is with haste. Haste benefits us by giving us faster weapon swings leading to more melee attacks and, more importantly, more killing machine procs. It also leads to faster rune regen, which leads to more obliterates/howling blasts depending on 2h/dw, which in turn leads to more frost strikes. However, we are limited in our ability to actually use these increased resources. Dual-wield is already nearly gcd-capped, especially if any ams soaking is involved. Thus, the more haste you gain, the less benefit haste actually gives you, since you end up wasting resources.

    The final issue is with mastery. Mastery is fairly solid for dual-wield, although the fact that obliterate and soul reaper do not benefit from mastery means that as you gain more mastery, the damage difference between an obliterate and a howling blast decreases to the point that using obliterate at all seems almost useless. The dps difference between a dw dk who knows how to manage their unholy runes well and one that just hits buttons decreases even further with more mastery, which is a problem. For 2h frost, mastery is underwhelming since their key damage ability is obliterate. Consequently, most of 2h frost damage does not even scale with mastery, making it a very poor stat for them.

    The devs do not like to hear us saying that a class is "scaling" poorly, but the fundamental issue with frost DKs is our secondary stat design--our stats work against each other, so the more gear we get, the less valuable our secondary stats become. Right now, I continue to play dw frost in raids because I enjoy it, even though it is behind unholy, but if this scaling issue continues I will eventually be forced to play unholy.
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    90 Worgen Death Knight
    16855
    It would be wonderful if the choice between dw frost and 2h frost was simply a matter of weapons and not reforging gear. I personally hate current dw frost spam happy hb priority but understand its the bees knees to some current players. That said I would very much like it if say when I got two heroic dw weapons still had yet to see a higher 2h str weapon then 496 drop all that would matter is me switching weapons out and be on my marry way. Yet currently we as frost dks can not do this and it is because of our terrible secondary stats.

    I doubt blizzard will put in the time and energy to fix this in 5.4; however, food for thought come 6.0!
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    90 Orc Death Knight
    10750
    It would be wonderful if the choice between dw frost and 2h frost was simply a matter of weapons and not reforging gear. I personally hate current dw frost spam happy hb priority but understand its the bees knees to some current players. That said I would very much like it if say when I got two heroic dw weapons still had yet to see a higher 2h str weapon then 496 drop all that would matter is me switching weapons out and be on my marry way. Yet currently we as frost dks can not do this and it is because of our terrible secondary stats.

    I doubt blizzard will put in the time and energy to fix this in 5.4; however, food for thought come 6.0!

    Perhaps you would have more fun with DW if you played with Plague Leech instead of UB.
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    90 Human Death Knight
    12440
    but if this scaling issue continues I will eventually be forced to play unholy.


    I wouldn't get to far ahead of yourself on that, Unholy is mostly being held up by the feather, and the set bonuses are not looking too good for it next tier as unholy is starting to run into GCD problems with heroic gear in this tier, in T16 we are not going to need a haste proc from the 2 set (which even buffed up a bit in length doesn't stack worth a crap anyways) and the 4 set is negligible at best.

    What is even worse is that if we do get enough haste to permanently Cap Unholy GCD, then what is the point of Unholy Frenzy?

    I also have worries on the cloaks, if they trigger on hit effects Death Knights are gonna have terrible synergy with the things with wasted Killing Machine/Sudden Doom Procs.

    Edit : Mentioned Feather twice.
    Edited by Ryudaraku on 7/6/2013 12:57 AM PDT
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    20 Orc Warlock
    8100
    It doesn't seem like anyone understands how powerful that AMS glyph actually is for raiding. Makes me want to raid again.
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    90 Orc Death Knight
    10645
    I forgot to say I've updated OP with this:

    July 4th


    Interesting discussion about frost dk scaling: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9423502347

    Also EU discussion about DKS: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7762386329


    If you want to discuss about frost dk scaling, there is a pretty decent discussion on that thread. I recommend everyone to check it out.
    Edited by Athdeux on 7/7/2013 2:32 PM PDT
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