Topic I just don't "get" it.....pvp assist plz.
I'm still leveling this frost mage up, but I having trouble in BG's. I loss A Lot of duels or 1v1 situations in the BG. I have mained a rogue for Pvp for years and if someone asked for a couple of pvp "rotations" I could easily give them a couple patterns that would get them started. Now Ive decide to give a caster a try for pvp.
So here goes; my open/"rotation" usually starts as follows:
1. Sometimes a greater invisibility if available.
2. Pet freeze
3. Deep freeze
4. Frozen Orb
5. Living Bomb
6. Frost bolt
7. Use procs
(I will pop IV at some point if I think of it and its available)
Then for melee nova/blink them if them get close; for caster CS or frost jaw them; against hunters I'm helpless.
If anyone could please give a not very intelligent person some tips or constructive criticism on how I can improve my opener or other areas of play-style that would be awesome. I'm afraid it's just not clicking for me. I do good damage on "boss' targets, but against other player in a duel type situation I feel like I hardly win. Other classes stuns and heals far out weight my ability to dps them down. I know the Mage can be very strong I just need to L2P. TY.
Edited by Nuclea on 6/14/13 9:16 AM (PDT)
You're going to lose against a good hunter 9 times out of 10, so just bend over and take it. I sometimes don't even bother wasting cooldowns on them 1v1, going to die anyway. There's no rotation but mage is all about avoiding as much dmg as possible, and blowing people up in a deep. Mages don't have the self healing of most other classes. I can plow through groups as a lock and come out unscathed, but a mage needs to buzz around the map, avoiding everything they can. When deep is on CD, you should just focus on maintaining distance and surviving, I would use living bomb before you deep people too, the dot ticking is not negligible, and it'll usually get you a ffb to use after the ice lance spam ends.
Also, greater invis looks great on paper, but fails so often in pvp. I would always use cold snap, a big heal plus an extra root and ice block will save you more times than 3 seconds of shield wall will.
Edited by Xzap on 6/14/13 10:09 AM (PDT)
I'll give cold snap a try then. Is it used mostly for the heal or the reset of IB? I usually only remember I even have IB after I'm dead, and even when I do IB, it just delays my inevitable death. But your right about greater invisibility not being so great. For defensive purposes its terrible, I'm always popped almost immediately back out of it. Only good thing is the short CD, using it for surprise attacks, offensive purposes only.
For my opening should I be doing this:???
1. Pet freeze
2. Living bomb (does this bust them out of my freeze?)
4. Frozen Orb
5. Frost Bolt
6. Use procs.
None of those were really effective.
Firstly you want to open with polymorph, it's only really useful while they are at full health anyway. It will let you set up your damage, ice barrier up etc.
I use frost bomb so I would cast that into the polymorph (doesn't break it yet).
Then launch the frozen orb BEFORE deep freeze.
Then frostbolt and petfreeze them at the same time (practice this, pet abilities are off your gcd and can be cast while you are casting).
You want enough haste to be able to cast 2 frostbolts into your deep freeze (frostbolt shatters much harder than ice lance and doesn't waste finger of frost procs generated). Follow the last frostbolt with an ice lance.
Frostfire bolt to consume brainfreeze proc. Again ALWAYS cast this outside of deep freeze.
-or if they are somehow not dead or there is a second target-
Assuming you have 1 or 2 FoF procs currently and a brainfreeze, now is an excellent time to pop alter time (since you should still be at full health).
If your initial target is still alive, they should have 3 stacks of frostbolt debuff on them so ice lances (and any frostbolts) you will be firing off at them will deal 15% more damage.
Yes yes yes......... Picture if you will inside my tiny brain a dim little lite bulb starting to flicker on.
Ty abracadaver (love the name) for the exceptional details in your explanation as well. That always helps to understand the 'why' behind what your doing.
I'm seeing now it appears I have been "wasting" my deep freeze by using my procs while they were in deep freeze. Yes I'm a derpy noob mage.
2.living or frost bomb
?????4.frostbolt and pet freeze combo. Do i want to time the pet freeze so it hits just after the frostbolt? Or at the same time? Obviously if I time this wrong they won't be 'frozen' therefore I would be unable to deep them? Is this accurate???
6.2 FB's following the last with an ice lance. "Shatter" them whilst they are in deep freeze.
7. Use procs.
-melee: nova, blink, blazing speed, frost jaw them
-caster: CS, frost jaw
Something like this perhaps?
I can't wait to get home today so I can start trying to perfect this new opening on a dummy and then to the BG's.
Living bomb won't break your freeze, at least not right away, could break after a tick but will usually take at least 2. The good thing about casting living bomb on a frozen target is it gives the shatter crit chance to the all ticks, even after the freeze ends.
Edited by Tyiedron on 6/14/13 12:48 PM (PDT)
Favorite of mine:
Poly or Pet Freeze > Frost Bomb > Frost Jaw > FrostBolt > Frostfire Bolt > Ice Lance.
Simple, hard cast.
If that doesn't kill 'em, use frozen orb and deep freeze them while spamming more ice lances.
Edit: Don't forget to pop ice veins to make these hard casts easier.
Favorite of mine:
On the last frostfire bolt and ice lance you mention in your rotation, I assume that you are simply using your procs with this?
I feel I do need some sort of serviceable 'rotation' pattern to use while pet freeze, deep freeze, and frozen orb are all on CD. Or at least a rotation that does not require frozen orb, since its on a minute CD. The pet freeze and deep freeze are only 30 sec so they will likely be up more times than not.
Perhaps that rotation you list above could help. I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of it.
Edited by Tyiedron on 6/14/13 1:43 PM (PDT)
Yeah, frostfire is the proc from frost bomb. Forgot to add that.
1. The frost bomb won't affect the poly (as ya know), so it's good to start off with it.
2. The frost jaw keep them in place and silenced so they're stuck there after poly is down.
3. The frostbolt will proc from shatter.
4. Frostfire should proc from FB's explosion by now.
5. Ice lance should be up from Fingers of frost.
I recommend a poly instead of pet freeze so you have pet freeze to use for a deep freeze + orb shatter then ice lance.
Edited by Skullgrin on 6/14/13 11:11 PM (PDT)
I ran 4 or so BG's only just a few moments ago.
I died a lot in the first 2 BG's. I learned real quick to stick with a small group.
With support I was dealing out tons of damage and hardly ever dieing. ;)
Only lvl 87 so I'm not going to complain. Got a nice set of tmog gear out of it.
I've been thinking and studying this a bit for the past hour or so.
Should I switch to frost bomb for this opening???
This opening looks ok to me:
2. Frost bomb or living bomb
3. Frozen orb
4. Frost jaw
Frostbolt+ pet freeze combo thing
Into a DEEP FREEZE.
5. 2 Frostbolts while they are in the DF.
6. Use procs.
Is there any flaws in that opening that I'm missing? Again I'm new and learning so there may be something wrong with it I haven't considered.
What glyphs should I consider? For PvP/random BG stuff.
Edited by Abracadaver on 6/14/13 7:55 PM (PDT)
1) Frostbomb provides better burst damage 1v1. Living bomb and nether tempest is for dot spreading and isn't as effective in this situation.
2) Your rotation specified only one frostbolt and 2 ice lances into a deepfreeze, this is less damage than 2 frostbolts and 1 ice lance. It will probably waste another FoF proc and you are 1 frostbolt stack behind now.
You want to avoid casting any procs into a deep freeze since they already benefit from shatter.
The pet freeze needs to land before the cast of frostbolt ends, preferably towards the end to minimise chance of it breaking or being dispelled/hand of freedom etc.
Frostjaw is unneccesary for frost while setting up your deep freeze burst, that is what polymorph is for. Save frostjaw for later in the fight (it functions like a polymorph that doesn't heal them and provides a shatter).
For random battlegrounds I would recommend glyph of Water elemental so you don't lose him so easily and it helps keep him in range for pet freezes.
Glyph of Armours helps.
Glyph of Deep freeze increases your burst damage slightly by removing the global from deep freeze.
Glyph of Ice lance is strong versus groups of players, especially when you have a lot of mastery and frozen orb up.
Glyph of Polymorph may help if you need to do a lot of CC (more suited for arena).
Let me also add that you don't want to follow a "rotation". If you catch an enemy without a trinket or bubble/wall, then I guess you have a rotation to follow that's stated above. 9/10 times when you go to follow that "rotation" at the start of the duel, they'll trinket and most of your damage will be ruined.
Before you do all of that, get their trinket down. Use moderate damage to put in pressure and they'll likely trinket the first deep freeze. Survive for 30 seconds more, then bust every cd you have and follow the said rotation above. They won't have a way to get out, thefore causing them to endure 4 seconds of insane damage, followed by proc spamming, leading ultimately to their death. It's unlikely that anyone could survive all of this.
When I duel other Mages, I find that far too many of them try to swifty me at the very start. Get their defensive cooldowns down, then swifty them. It doesn't make much sense to do it the other way around.
I was excited to tryout some of the 'new rotation suggestions, however, here is some of the issues I'm having:
1. Frost bond
2. Frozen orb
3. FB+pet freeze+ deep freeze.
Lets stop here.
- first my cast times are so slow at this time, that the frost bomb detonates before the pet freeze+ deep freeze lands. I may have to wait until 90 and try out this rotation again.
-second I'm getting interrupted a lot during the FB+ pet freeze stage. I never get to complete the cast time of the frostbolt. By then the bomb exploded and I've missed out on the whole reason to even take frost bomb.
Living bomb seems 'easier' ATM, it's instant, I don't have to concern myself with freezing them, and it gives me a instant dot to place on them should I want to just kite them. It just sucks for trying to burst someone down. Other classes seem better suited for a war of attrition than I am, they have more stuns and and more heals and superior survivability.
Maybe I should just level up my 44 hunter and be done with it. I need to face it, that not everyone has 'the right stuff' to be a Mage. Not just anyone can play this class in PvP and get satisfying results. It's a good class, but a difficult one to play well, and that takes a smart player to play. In other words 'not me'. TY everyone for your suggestions I read them all and tried them all out, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm feeling very discouraged right now. :(
The idea of polymorphing them first is to prevent you getting interrupted which might mean polymorphing a different player which is attacking you instead while you open up on your first target.
The rotation I specified is the ideal opener and obviously things might not go as planned during the fight so you need to adapt to the situation.
You might need to work on practising your casts to make sure there is no delays between spells, it can help to spam the next ability before the global or cast has finished on your current spell (but I thought everyone does this anyway?). The duration of frost bomb is exactly 2 frostbolts or slightly longer than a frostbolt and 1 global (used for frozen orb) so there is no reason why your frost bomb should be ending early regardless of haste levels.
Frost bomb appeals to me more for the single target burst damage and consistent brainfreeze proc which is good to rely on.
Are you trying to jump into the middle of combat like a warrior or something? This is not how mage's work well. We have little cast protection and our damage is concentrated around single spell schools so we are very vulnerable to interrupts. You need to sit at the back and let your team mates take the beating and assist them rather than try to take everyone on by yourself. It will not work.
It's best to be dynamic rather than sticking to a cookie-cutter "rotation". Some situations call for you to blow your cooldowns just to survive. If you're only using a "rotation" in PvP, you're doing it wrong.
For instance I like using my pet's freeze ability when a rogue uses smoke bomb, and then put down that ring of frost right under their feet to freeze them in place until smoke bomb wears off. If they don't have cloak or shadow step up in that small time frame, they're likely to get a nice string of crits to the face and have to go into survival mode. It forces them to use cooldowns, or die.
Or when a hunter uses that "you can't hit me, and if I have the glyph you hit yourself", I iceblock and wait for their buff to fade, and I always try to save frozen orb for when they do their multi-pet ability and hit icy veins to get more ice lances in. It's tricky with hunters since they have a dispel ability (if glyphed, I think), which negates most of you buffs right away if they're paying attention.
It's all very situational.
Agreed, it was just an example of an optimal opener. It's not often that I am able to use every ability due to cooldowns and other things going on and I rarely need to pull it off anyway (usually you have players helping you and you only need a short burst of damage to land the kill).
The basics for a shatter is frostbolt followed by an ice lance into any of your roots/frost shock/frost trap/ring of frost. A stronger shatter using any of the previous roots is frostbomb>[polymorph another player, spell steal, dispel curse, ice barrier etc.]>frostbolt+ice lance. This should result in all 3 shattering off the one root.
Those shatters can be pulled off at almost any time using short cooldown spells.
Simple rotations and openers are good for starters, though keep in mind that if you want to progress and become better at PvP you will need to practice strategy, perception and adaption to any given situation.
For starters, learn to recognise the setups and bursts along with defensive CDs of the classes you'll be up against, so you will learn to see and take advantages when they appear.
For example, you know that a Mage can use Ice Block only once per 30secs due to the Hypothermia debuff (except in the situation where he has popped Alter Time), so use that to your advantage.
It comes through from practice and observing other classes. You will even learn to recognise a good player from a bad by the unpredictability and speed at which they respond to what you do.
All the best :)