the hunter problem. pvp

90 Human Hunter
11060
the biggest problem with hunters atm is that blizzard is letting the community dictate what hunter as a class does well. i remember them making a big deal about how you couldnt just ride away from hunters on your mount while they attacked you. so conc shot got nerfed for mop. not bad but ppl said "i dont like getting beaten while im trying to run away" so they broke hunters ability to do this. then mop comes out and bm makes an appearance. from day one ppl said "these pets hit too hard, i cant just los and chill out." bliz has been breaking pets since.

everyone who says hunter pets hit too hard knows that our main shots are going through our pets, but they see that blizz is pandering to the misinformed so they cry anytime they die out of hunter los. i dont like it that rogue can open on me from being invisible and turn invisible again after i start shooting them, but thats what rogue is. if i started writing qq posts about stealth i would be an idiot. this is what is happening to hunter tho. pets are what bm hunter does. period. to nerf this is to nerf stealth to a rogue.

there is no happy medium. making pet damage easy to manage means the bm hunter is useless. its a nerf to rogue stealth, warlock dots, or feral mobility or mage favoritism. if you need to nerf our damage, i guess i can understand, if our cc is too strong, fine, but you cannot keep breaking pet uptime and reliability. pets are too easy to control for my enemy and to hard to control for me. blink strike was everything good about class change. its removal nerfed my ability to switch targets. that autocast garbage is not reliable.

bm was strong. mostly because of op damage that has been fixed. all im saying is lets look at the damage, not the source it came from. my pet is me. fix the damage, dont break whats good about the class.

sry for the novella
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100 Night Elf Hunter
17700
The anti hunters never really got over the damage output of the 5.0 stampede exploiters, and no matter how many nerfs hunters take they will never be happy. Glad Holinka at least recognized that fact on twitter when he said there is a dedicated camp of people who wouldn't be happy with anything less than all hunter damage reduced by 50%. Despite his other retarded changes, at least he sees that.
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59 Goblin Death Knight
190
06/16/2013 12:56 PMPosted by Ilke
all im saying is lets look at the damage, not the source it came from. my pet is me. fix the damage, dont break whats good about the class.


Well said man.

This outcry has happened every time hunter has broken out of mediocrity. People don't like losing to hunters, whether it's pve or pvp. They are too use to the idea that hunter is suppose to be a lesser class and get insulted anytime it preforms well. Look how happy people were in wrath when BM damage was literally cut in half. They were gloating about the nerf, even though surv was buffed to do as much damage as bm. All hey really lost at that time was the 3% damage boost BM gave them. So the joke was really on them. But they didn't see anything wrong with BM damage being cut in half (Being one of the worst nerfs I've ever seen and it took 4 years for the spec to recover).

The anti hunters never really got over the damage output of the 5.0 stampede exploiters, and no matter how many nerfs hunters take they will never be happy. Glad Holinka at least recognized that fact on twitter when he said there is a dedicated camp of people who wouldn't be happy with anything less than all hunter damage reduced by 50%. Despite his other retarded changes, at least he sees that.


That's good to hear at least.
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90 Undead Warlock
8405
I've never really QQd about hunters, but the class does frustrate me a little bit (as someone who only plays clothie casters). But really, there's only one "true" problem I have with hunters that make them frustrating for me to face off against, and it's not their damage or their pets it's their CC and mobility. Something about just watching a hunter backpedal and jump all around all crazy and still be doing full damage and just blow me up frustrates me lol. Inb4 "you're bad" "get some rating n00b" etc, etc.

That being said, I don't think you guys should continue to be super nerfed into mediocrity for the entire lifetime of the class, it's just not fair so it's good to hear at least one dev won't listen to all the QQ.

Sadly though, I don't think the QQ for hunters will ever stop so long as the class exists. The majority of WoW PvPers are not skilled and not high rated, and hunters counter a lot of classes when said classes are played by bad players which generates a ton of QQ (just like mage and chaos bolt QQ).

It's also not fair to have your pets broken but I will say I'm jealous of hunter pets as a warlock. When I fight against a BM and his pet has 300k+ health AND he can use the abilities while out of LoS I get insanely jealos when my succubus has like 200k health and I can't control my pets out of LoS. I think blizzard has problems balancing pets in general though. Most pets have horrible AI and QoL problems (especially the water elemental) and they have just never seemed to get pets right.

Anyway, now I'm just rambling so I'll part with this statement.
I'd like to see hunters (and other classes too) become less about OMG POP CDs AND BLOW !@#$ UP and more about being a CC class really. Make survival viable and put an emphasis on CC. Take CC away from other classes, give it back to rogues and hunters. Make each class fulfill a certain niche. Sadly though that'll never happen because blizz has this "bring the player, not the class" philosophy so they think every class should be able to do everything...and that's when you end up with this unbalanced joke of a game that MoP is.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
Hunters were being complained about and called overpowered their entire existence, even when they had the crappiest arena rep imaginable.

Hunters are the same reason that melee carries are !@#$%ed about in League of Legends; they're pubstomper. If you make a mistake, they punish you hard for it and it's hard to recover, though good play will shut down a Hunter harder than any other class as they have many exploitable bugs, weaknesses, and overall flaws.

When we got to MoP, Blizzard's approach to fixing Hunters in PvP wasn't to make our bugs go away or fix some of our glaring design faults present at the higher end. They buffed our damage and removed our minimum range, making Hunters an absolute terror at the bottom of the spectrum while the damage made them a little too much at the higher end. This would be like Tryndamere being weak overall at the higher end, so they boost his base stats through the roof. Suddenly, he's curbstomping noobs and providing too much actual output for the high end players.

The problem is that instead of carefully managing what they nerf, they're just axing everything and it's starting to have a lot of PvE crossover. Hunters are doing pretty poor in PvE but we're unlikely to see adjustments because of PvP QQ. The Arcane Shot change on the PTR is an example of this where a change intended as a PvE QoL adjustment, as high Haste builds have a hell of a time emptying excess Focus, is being complained about en masse and it's not even a true damage boost for us in PvE.

The two areas need to be split and until then, Hunters are going to keep sucking in PvE like they basically have all expansion. All 3 specs are basically PvP viable (even Surv is popular in EU) and it means that none of our specs can receive the attention they direly need in PvE without risking them becoming over the top again in PvP.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
18040
This is pretty much off topic but... I get really mad seeing all of these real problems with the hunter class that need fixed because I personally care more about the minor problems... Things like "What is the best pet? Sporebat." is now no longer such a big joke as it used to be because sporebats are practically required at least in your stable these days.

The big problems need to be fixed first obviously, but it makes me extremely frustrated when the class has so many issues and design flaws that blizzard doesn't seem to know where to start yet any change they try to implement just breaks some part of hunters even more.

Actually being able to take a pet I like, or heaven forbid an actual devilsaur, is pretty much a pipe dream these days unless I get very lucky and don't have to/get to provide any raid utility to my group.

It is a paradox;

Hunter pets are our life long boon companions! Hopefully this change will bring hunters back to playing with the pets they like!

We want hunters to be able to fill any buffs with pets, especially BM, even though that that kills absolutely any semblance of choice that the hunter class had when it came to pets.

You can't have both unless you just so happen to love taking your sporebat to every single raid...
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100 Worgen Hunter
14820
06/16/2013 01:14 PMPosted by Bushsbuddy
Glad Holinka at least recognized that fact on twitter when he said there is a dedicated camp of people who wouldn't be happy with anything less than all hunter damage reduced by 50%.


I don't follow twitter, but I'd love to read what he had to say. My impression of this guy has been less than favorable thus far, so reading something like what you're describing would be both a surprise and a pleasure.

Spinner, at this point I agree with you regarding pets. Although I have been against all the pet homogenization, since we are where we are it just makes sense to take the final step and have every pet be capable of speccing into every skill.

PVE players could finally bring the pet they like and just spec to provide the needed buff, and PVP hunters would be less predictable in what their pet brings to the table. I see that as a win-win.

Funny about the sporebat. We raid with two hunters and I always seem to be the one to have to have the sporebat. I don't like sporebats.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
17700
Glad Holinka at least recognized that fact on twitter when he said there is a dedicated camp of people who wouldn't be happy with anything less than all hunter damage reduced by 50%.


I don't follow twitter, but I'd love to read what he had to say. My impression of this guy has been less than favorable thus far, so reading something like what you're describing would be both a surprise and a pleasure.

Spinner, at this point I agree with you regarding pets. Although I have been against all the pet homogenization, since we are where we are it just makes sense to take the final step and have every pet be capable of speccing into every skill.

PVE players could finally bring the pet they like and just spec to provide the needed buff, and PVP hunters would be less predictable in what their pet brings to the table. I see that as a win-win.

Funny about the sporebat. We raid with two hunters and I always seem to be the one to have to have the sporebat. I don't like sporebats.


Like I said, the only positive thing is that he realized these people are just idiots. Unfortunately he seems to be one as well. Its all about degrees, they wanted hunters nerfed by half or deleted, he wants hunters low enough to stop the QQ but not so bad as to lose subs :P He doesn't seem to have any knowledge of the class however as we see with the recent changes.

EDIT: I don't follow twitter either but I read that because it was linked to me. I just scrolled down the page and the number of hunter nerf tweets are disgusting. Even the casual drive by hunter hate like "Why you nerf X!? Its not like we're OP like Hunter and X". Its insane.
Edited by Bushsbuddy on 6/17/2013 5:25 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Hunter
4775
06/17/2013 05:23 AMPosted by Bushsbuddy


I don't follow twitter, but I'd love to read what he had to say. My impression of this guy has been less than favorable thus far, so reading something like what you're describing would be both a surprise and a pleasure.

Spinner, at this point I agree with you regarding pets. Although I have been against all the pet homogenization, since we are where we are it just makes sense to take the final step and have every pet be capable of speccing into every skill.

PVE players could finally bring the pet they like and just spec to provide the needed buff, and PVP hunters would be less predictable in what their pet brings to the table. I see that as a win-win.

Funny about the sporebat. We raid with two hunters and I always seem to be the one to have to have the sporebat. I don't like sporebats.


Like I said, the only positive thing is that he realized these people are just idiots. Unfortunately he seems to be one as well. Its all about degrees, they wanted hunters nerfed by half or deleted, he wants hunters low enough to stop the QQ but not so bad as to lose subs :P He doesn't seem to have any knowledge of the class however as we see with the recent changes.

EDIT: I don't follow twitter either but I read that because it was linked to me. I just scrolled down the page and the number of hunter nerf tweets are disgusting. Even the casual drive by hunter hate like "Why you nerf X!? Its not like we're OP like Hunter and X". Its insane.


If they are only listening to tweets they are doing a disservice to the rest of their paying customers who don't use all social media outlets. Not a very accurate picture of how people feel. I guess the saying consider the source doesn't mean anything any more.
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I think the "hunter problem" is really just the "BM hunter problem". Marks doesn't get nearly the flack that BM gets, even though its damage is pretty good and its got some solid tools for pvp.

I think alot of the issue boils down to:

1) Its hard to stop a BM hunter from hitting you. High mobility, good CC, high pet damage and alot of ways out of CC make everyone see hunters as really bad dps targets. This allows them even better uptime as people tend to go after whoever the hunter is with.

2) Having a 1min CD trinket + enrage makes it tough to counter hunter burst. Throw in that you can use your pvp on use trinket once a minute with your once a minute CD and its tough to counter.

Hunter's damage in pvp feels a bit high (though admittedly, their pve damage seems like its not the highest possible) and they are really hard to lock down and keep from hitting you.

While that might be counterable for some comps at high ratings, the massive shift towards teams that are "hunter/healer/X" even at high ratings seems to suggest at all levels hunters are seen as being balanced a bit higher than others.

Consider me very very scared of 5.4 BM Hunter Arcane Shot spam with thrill of the hunt. Very very scared.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
17700
I think the "hunter problem" is really just the "BM hunter problem". Marks doesn't get nearly the flack that BM gets, even though its damage is pretty good and its got some solid tools for pvp.

I think alot of the issue boils down to:

1) Its hard to stop a BM hunter from hitting you. High mobility, good CC, high pet damage and alot of ways out of CC make everyone see hunters as really bad dps targets. This allows them even better uptime as people tend to go after whoever the hunter is with.

2) Having a 1min CD trinket + enrage makes it tough to counter hunter burst. Throw in that you can use your pvp on use trinket once a minute with your once a minute CD and its tough to counter.

Hunter's damage in pvp feels a bit high (though admittedly, their pve damage seems like its not the highest possible) and they are really hard to lock down and keep from hitting you.

While that might be counterable for some comps at high ratings, the massive shift towards teams that are "hunter/healer/X" even at high ratings seems to suggest at all levels hunters are seen as being balanced a bit higher than others.

Consider me very very scared of 5.4 BM Hunter Arcane Shot spam with thrill of the hunt. Very very scared.


The only hunter problem is the inner class fighting. There is a huge camp of hunters, be they alts or mains that only like a certain spec and the most indignant of them is the marks camp. They would rather see hunters be unviable for 99% of the playerbase and have marks be the best of a bad bunch than have marks on the bottom.

The no skill BM line gets thrown around a lot but its just not true. All the specs now are so similar if you say one spec is no skill it applies to the others. Back in wrath I was MM as were most people but always had a BM offspec and even pvp'd with it a lot. Its was much harder to be effective with it vs marks because you ahd so much less control. No silencing shot, no disarm, your pet was a r-tard etc. But it was fun because you traded control for uncontrollability. Remember that was when BW lasted 18 seconds and was full CC immunity. No one complained until Beast Cleave won a tourney and suddenly it was time to destroy the spec for 4 years.

Too many people are ok with the idea of BM just being the pretty pet spec. It needs to stop.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
17700
My hope is that next xpac is a legion xpac, and they add a demon hunter class that wears mail and uses ranged weapons, but doesn't have any pets. That way the overabundance of hunters will end because the people that want a ranger type class have more options. I think that would go a long way to mending the divide between hunters.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
14760
06/17/2013 06:53 AMPosted by Bushsbuddy
My hope is that next xpac is a legion xpac, and they add a demon hunter class that wears mail and uses ranged weapons, but doesn't have any pets.


That's not what Warcraft Demon Hunters are at all.

They use melee weapons (particularly glaives), shadow magic, and would probably wear leather armor and blindfolds.

Think of Illidan or the npcs around the Black Temple, they're Demon Hunters.
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100 Troll Hunter
7330
The only thing Demon Hunters and Hunters have in common is the word Hunter.

The DH class is conceptually more of a Lock/Rogue hybrid.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
17700
I ment more like a D3 demon hunter, but call it whatever you like. A melee spec would be fine too.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
17700
Bumping quality thread.
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100 Night Elf Druid
12785
you say-

my pet is me


soo, since your pet is ''you'' and its actually doin more damage then the real ''you'' how come when i kill the pet, ''you'' dont die with it?
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8 Goblin Warrior
0
you say-

my pet is me


soo, since your pet is ''you'' and its actually doin more damage then the real ''you'' how come when i kill the pet, ''you'' dont die with it?
Might as well since you just crippled him if he's BM and if he's not you just halved his utility, lowered his damage and forced him to either dump his pet or cast a 6 second cast to rez it and it's still a fragile little critter.

ETA What he said below me too.
Edited by Whim on 6/17/2013 5:22 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
you say-

my pet is me


soo, since your pet is ''you'' and its actually doin more damage then the real ''you'' how come when i kill the pet, ''you'' dont die with it?

He means, the pet isn't basically a fire and forget dot like it is for Warlocks. The key attacks for the Hunter are personally used and consume our own resources but are executed through the pet as a visual thing. You also negate half of his damage by killing the pet and took away some of his defensive tools such as Master's Call and Roar of Sacrifice.
Edited by Bullettime on 6/17/2013 5:14 PM PDT
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