Fel Flame, the warlock Scorch? No thanks

1 Human Mage
0
But when you're not moving, you'd NEVER cast it. Instead you'd stick to your main dps rotation spells.

Exactly!

Hence making it, design wise, the "scorch for locks".

And that is the issue I have. If i want to play with scorch, I'd play my mage.

non 5.4 fel flame was not fully working properly, granted, but at least it was unique in its function and unlike any other single target spell in the game.

Why homogenize? Its no good this change to fel flame.
Edited by Zomgdps on 6/18/2013 12:55 PM PDT
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Instant chaos bolts? I'd love to have those.

Mystwind: destro has no procs. Zero. You have to hard cast everything except conflag which is an instant and part of the main rotation.

During movement the only damage being applied here is a small tick from immolation if that is up and fel flame if you want to wreck your mana pool. Any embers generated during this period will have to immediately be spent on casting chaos bolt to recoup mana once you can actually plant your feet for 2.5+ seconds. 2 fel flame casts will consume 120k mana, or 40% of your mana bar. 5 such casts will make you go oom from a full mana bar, and it's not at all certain that you'll go into movement with one.

I'm talking destro here, not affliction, this doesn't address anything for destro.
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1 Human Mage
0

And if I wanted to have to dot up targets, I would have rolled a warlock.

Precisely.

Which is why I absolutely detest the current imbalanced state of the mage bombs as well. They take my perfectly happy nuker class and turn them into multi dotting afflic-locks.

Completely wrong, but that is a separate thread. One battle at a time, friend ;)
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1 Human Mage
0
2 fel flame casts will consume 120k mana, or 40% of your mana bar. 5 such casts will make you go oom from a full mana bar, and it's not at all certain that you'll go into movement with one.

Dude.. seriously. Go back a page and read the math.

This is false. Not because of any opinion or anything like that.
You are factually and mathematically incorrect. Repeating the same incorrect statement doesn't make it right.

This aint politics.
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Where are you getting this information about fel flame being 5% of base mana? If that is true is does change things a bit. On live, it is 60,000 mana.

Just logged in and double checked the tooltip, and that is indeed the cost on live.
Edited by Sybhyl on 6/18/2013 1:04 PM PDT
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100 Human Mage
14980
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=77799/fel-flame
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http://www.wowhead.com/spell=77799/fel-flame


Either that is wrong or the in game tooltip is wrong.

Just did a quick test dummy test. Even with in combat regen I go oom in about 9 casts from a full bar.
Edited by Sybhyl on 6/18/2013 1:08 PM PDT
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1 Human Mage
0
Where are you getting this information about fel flame being 5% of base mana?

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/77799-fel-flame
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1 Human Mage
0
06/18/2013 01:04 PMPosted by Sybhyl
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=77799/fel-flame


Either that is wrong or the in game tooltip is wrong.

Just did a quick test dummy test. Even with in combat regen I go oom in about 9 casts from a full bar.


Recalculating based on 60,000 mana (20% of base)

20 - (6.25*1.5) = 20 - 9.375

= 10.625% mana per cast (normalized regen)

Which is, as you correctly state, ~9 casts

At 1.5 seconds each, that is 13.5 seconds of movement.

So you'll have to be moving for 13.5 straight seconds in order to oom yourself completely.

13.5 seconds of Fel flame (on my toon right now), generates ~1 full ember. This is not taking into consideration weaving in conflags. Even when stripping myself of gear (reduces crit) I can still generate a full ember from spamming fel flame.

This means that even after a full fel flame spam, you can get off a chaos bolt.

So I don't see what your issue is?

Though this is pretty woefully off topic now.

N.b. The 3 seconds it takes for you to deploy the chaos bolt from the fel flame spam, you will have regenerated 12.5% mana (37,500 mana).

A conflaged incinerate costs 30k.

So you'll be fine on mana.
Edited by Zomgdps on 6/18/2013 1:18 PM PDT
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90 Troll Warlock
11450
06/18/2013 12:51 PMPosted by Zomgdps
Having scorch proc pyroblast helps even the playing field a bit.

Scorch generates procs for mages.
Fel flame generates Dfury/Embers for locks.

Procs are to mages what 'secondary resource' is for locks.

The difference is in the magnitude. Fel Flame hardly generates any sort of secondary resources, while procced Pyroblasts are very strong on their own.
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100 Worgen Mage
13255
06/18/2013 01:04 PMPosted by Sybhyl
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=77799/fel-flame


Either that is wrong or the in game tooltip is wrong.

Just did a quick test dummy test. Even with in combat regen I go oom in about 9 casts from a full bar.


Confirmed. I just double-checked on my 86 lock.

Mana pool for an 86 lock is 120k mana. Fel Flame costs 24k per cast... or 20% of the mana pool. This matches Sybhyl's report of 60k per cast at level 90, where the mana pool is 300k.

20% of the mana pool sounds way too expensive for a mobile dps filler spell. Perhaps Blizz has or is planning to reduce the mana cost to 5%?

5% is a much more manageable number. That would make it more efficient than scorch cast by a mage with Invocation... and they don't have any mana issues.
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1 Human Mage
0
The difference is in the magnitude. Fel Flame hardly generates any sort of secondary resources, while procced Pyroblasts are very strong on their own.

Um..?

Fel flame generates resource, Scorch has a chance to generate pyros.
You do not auto-proc pyros from scorches.

I think there are people here who have never played mages.
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1 Human Mage
0
5% is a much more manageable number. That would make it more efficient than scorch cast by a mage with Invocation... and they don't have any mana issues.

As shown above, (with 20% mana) you would have to be moving for over 13 seconds in order to oom yourself, and given destro regen, as soon as the chaos bolt is cast, we will have regened enough mana to continue casting.

Hence, I do not see the issue.

That being said, why are we trying to make it more like scorch!!!?!?
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The mana is little less tight than I thought but it is still tight and you will probably have to come out of movement and get a chaos bolt cast as quickly as possible. So that ember you gain during movement is pretty much a wash.
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1 Human Mage
0
So that ember you gain during movement is pretty much a wash.

The ember you gain from movement just gave you a chaos bolt...

How is that a 'wash'?? You want tea and cookies too! :P

But can we please put the numerics of this issue aside and focus on the point being made.

My lock doesn't want scorch.
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90 Troll Warlock
11450
06/18/2013 01:20 PMPosted by Zomgdps
The difference is in the magnitude. Fel Flame hardly generates any sort of secondary resources, while procced Pyroblasts are very strong on their own.

Um..?

Fel flame generates resource, Scorch has a chance to generate pyros.
You do not auto-proc pyros from scorches.

I think there are people here who have never played mages.

Not saying it's guaranteed, but it's a damn sight better than generating a tiny fraction of an ember. You aren't doing much DPS with Fel Flame, and even once you have that Ember you have to stand still to cast Chaos Bolt. Pyroblast is instant cast and Mages are running 65%+ crit now.
Edited by Argument on 6/18/2013 1:26 PM PDT
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1 Human Mage
0
06/18/2013 01:25 PMPosted by Argument
Not saying it's guaranteed, but it's a damn sight better than generating a tiny fraction of an ember.

If you are saying it 'feels' better, then yea.. that is the nature of RNG.

When it works in your favor, it 'feels' great. When it doesn't it sucks hardcore.

But now think of all those times that you spend casting that you don't proc. It feels awful. In fact, if you go to the mage forums right now, it is this "RNG is awful" that is one of the big issues mages have with fire right now.

generating embers might be small and slow and steady, but they are guaranteed. We don't want to add RNG there. My lock says no to RNG, yours should too.

If I wanted RNG, I'd play my fire mage. Why does everyone want to be the same??!?
Edited by Zomgdps on 6/18/2013 1:31 PM PDT
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90 Troll Warlock
11450
You are still missing the point.

-Generating embers is slow and does nothing to add to DPS while moving. Chaos Bolt cannot be cast while moving.
-Pyroblast is instant cast and Mages proc them very consistently with our current gear levels.

This has nothing to do with nonsense like "feeling better." Pyroblast is a better mechanic to dovetail onto a movement spell, because Pyroblasts are instant cast and allow mages to do more damage while moving. Warlocks are stuck with just trying to Fel Flame DPS and wait to use their Embers.

The solution to this is, of course, is to just stop playing Destruction. Demonology has the best movement now, even if it is stuck with a strictly inferior Scorch too. Affliction is likely to have the same problems as well, because it literally gets nothing from Fel Flame (so far as I can tell).
Edited by Argument on 6/18/2013 1:33 PM PDT
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06/18/2013 01:24 PMPosted by Zomgdps
So that ember you gain during movement is pretty much a wash.

The ember you gain from movement just gave you a chaos bolt...

How is that a 'wash'?? You want tea and cookies too! :P

But can we please put the numerics of this issue aside and focus on the point being made.

My lock doesn't want scorch.


It's a wash because this isn't the way you really want to play destro.

The idea is to store up as many embers as possible and line them all up with procs and cooldowns. Otherwise, conflag + incinerate x3, refresh immo as needed on the target, rinse and repeat, which is pretty easy on the mana pool. Once you hit 3 or 4 embers you dump one ember to keep from wasting them but bank the others for your big windup. Then, boom: 3-4 chaos bolts in a row backed up by procs and cds.

Now, this is all fine and well if you come out of the movement phase with lots of embers to spare and have to dump one anyways. But if not, you're going to have spend the one ember you gained during movement just to get your mana back in a place where you can settle into the standard rotation and then restore your bank of embers.
Edited by Sybhyl on 6/18/2013 1:38 PM PDT
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1 Human Mage
0
06/18/2013 01:32 PMPosted by Argument
he solution to this is, of course, is to just stop playing Destruction. Demonology has the best movement now, even if it is stuck with a strictly inferior Scorch too.

Oookay.. so it is pretty clear you're one of those "i want to lobby for buffs for my class" locks who is going all hysterical.

If you're problem is that you cannot do zomgdps while moving at the same time, then yea.. you are about a week late buddy. They are nerfing our mobile DPS. They are not 'compensating' us for it.

It is a straight nerf. You are not helping the lock class with your current line of agenda.

The fact that instant pyros can be casted while moving is quite irrelevant, since DPS is over the course of the whole fight, and I have yet to come up against a fight that is 100% movement (and they will never make a fight like that btw).
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