Fel Flame, the warlock Scorch? No thanks

90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
I'm sorry but if that is the fel flame change.... it is absolutely we todd ed
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100 Troll Mage
17020
it is absolutely we todd ed


Took me a second until I said it outloud, I think that describes how I felt having to say it out loud to get it.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9780
I'm sorry but if that is the fel flame change.... it is absolutely we todd ed


What exactly do you expect? They basicly ruled out against being able to do a full rotation on the move unless you are backed up by a consistant string of procs and then gave you a spammable ability not messing up with your dots and a lowered mana cost. You also get a cast on the move CD.

We don't want homogenization but we also want something just as efficient as other specs. Thats basicly what locks are asking for now. The problem is you won't get good dps on the move unless :

A) You get full casting on the move. (This was deemed innapropriate by blizzard)

B) You get a "cast on the move CD" (most likeny not completely fulfilling the requirement all by itself unless movement phase are predictable and have enough time inbetween.)

C) Something to cast on the move at reduced DPS (new revision of the FF change but it will most likely be a DPS hit)

D) Procs (Oh noes!!! We don't want to be mages!!!)

Guess what they are trying to build up for you as a mobility package?
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
06/19/2013 05:32 AMPosted by Sparkplüg
I'm sorry but if that is the fel flame change.... it is absolutely we todd ed


What exactly do you expect? They basicly ruled out against being able to do a full rotation on the move unless you are backed up by a consistant string of procs and then gave you a spammable ability not messing up with your dots and a lowered mana cost. You also get a cast on the move CD.

We don't want homogenization but we also want something just as efficient as other specs. Thats basicly what locks are asking for now. The problem is you won't get good dps on the move unless :

A) You get full casting on the move. (This was deemed innapropriate by blizzard)

B) You get a "cast on the move CD" (most likeny not completely fulfilling the requirement all by itself unless movement phase are predictable and have enough time inbetween.)

C) Something to cast on the move at reduced DPS (new revision of the FF change but it will most likely be a DPS hit)

D) Procs (Oh noes!!! We don't want to be mages!!!)

Guess what they are trying to build up for you as a mobility package?


heres the thing, changing FF basically made it like mages a few patches ago and basically contradicts the reason they took away mages movable casting spell. thats why i said this change is... special.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9780
06/19/2013 06:11 AMPosted by Fayte


What exactly do you expect? They basicly ruled out against being able to do a full rotation on the move unless you are backed up by a consistant string of procs and then gave you a spammable ability not messing up with your dots and a lowered mana cost. You also get a cast on the move CD.

We don't want homogenization but we also want something just as efficient as other specs. Thats basicly what locks are asking for now. The problem is you won't get good dps on the move unless :

A) You get full casting on the move. (This was deemed innapropriate by blizzard)

B) You get a "cast on the move CD" (most likeny not completely fulfilling the requirement all by itself unless movement phase are predictable and have enough time inbetween.)

C) Something to cast on the move at reduced DPS (new revision of the FF change but it will most likely be a DPS hit)

D) Procs (Oh noes!!! We don't want to be mages!!!)

Guess what they are trying to build up for you as a mobility package?


heres the thing, changing FF basically made it like mages a few patches ago and basically contradicts the reason they took away mages movable casting spell. thats why i said this change is... special.


The reason it was changed from all spec can get scorch to only fire getting it is because it was used in an unintended way. You won't be able to fish for procs with FF while keeping the parameter of your mastery at a disbalanced full potential like arcane was by spamming scorch.

To make it as stupid as scorch was for arcane, it would need to generate so much ember to be a dps gain to spam it even if stationary to "fish" for more chaos bolt than the regular rotation can provide.
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Sparkplug, if I was an elemental shaman here, I'd be staying very very quiet and hoping that blizzard's newfound mania for turret casting doesn't include you as well. Because once locks get the hammer, guess who is the most mobile caster in the game?
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100 Troll Mage
17020
Sparkplug, if I was an elemental shaman here, I'd be staying very very quiet and hoping that blizzard's newfound mania for turret casting doesn't include you as well. Because once locks get the hammer, guess who is the most mobile caster in the game?


"mania for turret casting"

source?
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90 Draenei Shaman
9780
Sparkplug, if I was an elemental shaman here, I'd be staying very very quiet and hoping that blizzard's newfound mania for turret casting doesn't include you as well. Because once locks get the hammer, guess who is the most mobile caster in the game?


I am using my resto gear as ele as an off-spec for the time it will take me to build a full enh set. As for gettign nerfed, I guess you are right since ele has 3 out of 4 possibilities to cast on the move. We have a CD for full cast on the move, a scorch like filler and a proc system. Not my fault warlock clearly said in this thread they don't want instant procs.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015

The reason it was changed from all spec can get scorch to only fire getting it is because it was used in an unintended way. You won't be able to fish for procs with FF while keeping the parameter of your mastery at a disbalanced full potential like arcane was by spamming scorch.


Scorch wasn't only changed because of how Arcane used it, though. They also weren't happy with the fact that it was pretty much the go-to solution for movement by the vast majority of Mages. This was alluded to (not very clearly) in the class reviews, but also discussed a bit on Twitter; the devs feel that Mages have other tools for dealing with movement, and wanted to see them used more.

That leaves open the question of whether Mage tools for dealing with movement are sufficiently more potent than those Warlocks have to make Fel Flame make sense for every spec where Scorch doesn't, but if you're going to debate that question, bear in mind that Blizzard (a) considers the whole package, not isolated abilities, and (b) likes specs and classes to have different strengths and weaknesses.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5230
The scorch change was clearly triggered by arcane using it to circumvent the spec's intended gameplay. The other stuff was in there, sure, but that's not why they did it.

IMO, balance druids have the best solution. They have an instant-cast low-damage spell that when spammed, quickly ramps-up to do ~80% of the DPCT of their filler (more, when you include DoT ticks). Fel Flame could be buffed similarly, so that it does enough damage to be worth using in movement, but otherwise not.
Edited by Slant on 6/19/2013 9:00 AM PDT
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1 Human Mage
0
06/19/2013 08:59 AMPosted by Slant
IMO, balance druids have the best solution. They have an instant-cast low-damage spell that when spammed, quickly ramps-up to do ~80% of the DPCT of their filler (more, when you include DoT ticks).

I'm sure we can find a solution to lock mobility without resorting to giving them the mage scorch or the boomkin MF spam.

There are so many other possible solutions. e.g. what if you let them wholesale cast while moving with a blanket %dmg penalty? Or what if you give them a spell that can be spammed while moving which empowers their demons? Or what if you circumvent the need to move altogether by improving dTeleport?

It took me 4 secs to highlight 3 completely different solutions to the issue that can at least be explored. I'm sure if the blizz design team (whose job pretty much all day is to sit around and come up with possible solutions) can come up with much more thorough and unique solutions if they put their minds to it.

So yea.. one of the core points of this thread is to stay as far away from the propensity to go:

"Yea, class X solves this issue with method A, lets just give method A to locks".

The point is to keep the classes different, not just takes stuff form one class and give it to the other. Every time a player mentions that to be a possible solution, they not only propagate the idea of homogenization (instead of opposing it), but they also are not actually making the game better.

They are just making the jobs of the devs easier.

Don't be that guy.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5230
They seem to oppose your first two solutions as well.

Your third solution is interesting, although I'm not sure how it would work.
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1 Human Mage
0
They seem to oppose your first two solutions as well.

I have yet to see any statement, idea, proposal, musing, debate, discussion, or concept by Blizz that specifically targets doing something special to the demons during movement as a possible conduit for a solution to Warlock mobility. (i.e. not just to completely buff demons overall, but construct some interactive process which specifically targets movement).

But that is not even the point. The point is that it took me 4 secs to just brainstorm ideas without having to resort to "class X has A, gimme A".

That is the point. The onus should be placed back onto the shoulders of the design team's creativity. We shouldn't be resorting to just taking and giving because design is feeling lazy or wallowing in some defeatist attitude of "all options have been explored".

They haven't.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5230
You're attributing something to me that is not true. I made one post, I did not write a manifesto saying every class should be identical. Back off.
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1 Human Mage
0
You're attributing something to me that is not true. I made one post, I did not write a manifesto saying every class should be identical. Back off.

I'm actually not targeting you at all, but using your comments as a stepping stone to move the discussion forward and highlight a point of importance.

I'm not blaming you for anything, no need to get your knickers in a twist..

Chillax and contribute, or lurk.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5230
If you read your posts again, I'm sure how you can see how someone else might see it that way.

Anyway, the problem with simply buffing Fel Flame for movement is that it would take a substantial buff to make it feel good to use. It's very low damage now. It would need to get reasonably close to incinerate/shadow bolt, and a "slight" buff wouldn't do that.

Adding ramp-up like Balance is one neat way to accomplish that goal without compromising non-moving gameplay. There are of course other ways too.
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1 Human Mage
0
Imho, the entire direction of trying to mediate Lock mobile DPS purely through fel flame as a single target, spammable spell that just does damage, is the wrong direction to go.

Use the unique aspects of the class to solve the issue. Use the demons, use the curses, use the debuffs, use these concepts at the core of the lock class to come up with a nice solution.

"Spam this boring spell which is useless everywhere else and only used while moving" is just such an utterly lazy design.

What if whenever you move, your demon gets a debuff and then you can spam fel flames into your demon to build up his focus/mana to unleash a big attack? If we want to spitball ideas, I'm sure we can come up with tons of possibilities.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
06/19/2013 08:59 AMPosted by Slant
The scorch change was clearly triggered by arcane using it to circumvent the spec's intended gameplay. The other stuff was in there, sure, but that's not why they did it.


Sure, but just because it wasn't the triggering event doesn't mean it doesn't establish some similarities with the FF situation. As you say, that stuff was in there, it just wasn't enough for them to say, "we need to change this right now." If the Arcane problem alone were taken out of the picture, the other reasons, knowing what they do now, would likely discourage them from moving toward a Scorch-for-all-specs model.

But it's important to realize that the total package for Warlocks and Mages is very different, so even without the Arcane issue, there's no reason to expect the same decision for both classes.

IMO, balance druids have the best solution. They have an instant-cast low-damage spell that when spammed, quickly ramps-up to do ~80% of the DPCT of their filler (more, when you include DoT ticks). Fel Flame could be buffed similarly, so that it does enough damage to be worth using in movement, but otherwise not.


Yeah, I agree that that seems pretty reasonable. But damage while moving isn't the only part of the equation. If you had a hypothetical class that could blink every five seconds and another that could never move anywhere at anything other than run speed, they would not have need for equal capability to deal damage while moving. And when balancing the toolsets for handling movement, it's fair game to approach it with any combination of tools that let you deal damage outright, or that simply mitigate the downtime caused by movement.

Regarding Fel Flame, a lot depends on the other things they've talked about doing. The Fel Flame change alone isn't going to have to bear the full weight here.
Edited by Lhivera on 6/19/2013 9:54 AM PDT
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I still say that the right mobile filler here is incinerate, not fel flame.

Fel flame would make some sense in this context if and only if it procced an instant cast chaos bolt. Then it would be something like scorch. (With chaos bolt becoming a bit like hot streak pyroblast but still worth hardcasting while standing still.) I'm actually totally cool with a lock version of scorch, if it is done right. Homogenization is not my objection here. If anything, it's the lack of homogenization that's the issue, they're doing this in a half assed way and plopping in a scorch lite without taking into account spec mechanics. What makes scorch so wonderful is all those other instant casts and procs it synergizes with.

Fel flame is a fifth wheel.
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90 Human Warlock
11835
06/19/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Sybhyl
I still say that the right mobile filler here is incinerate, not fel flame.


Would be a welcome compromise in my book.
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