It's not an arms race if casters are mobile.

90 Blood Elf Mage
0
So the gist of this and every other thread related to KJC can essentially be boiled down to the following:

"KJC is necessary, rather than take it away, we should just give it to every caster."

"That is a bad idea and here is why: *list of valid reasons why changing the entire freaking paradigm of the game so warlocks can keep KJC is a bad idea*"

"Well, uh... Nuh uh, warlocks need KJC to be viable, we should just give it to every caster so we can keep KJC, it takes more skill and totally allows for more diverse encounter mechanics!"

"Oh? How exactly is it more skillful, and how exactly does it make for more diverse encounter mechanics?"

"Um...*deflects the question*. KJC is necessary for warlocks. We should change the way the entire game works because KJC is necessary and there is no other possible alternative to having permanent 100% mobile DPS.

"Sorry, not gonna happen."

"But Guildwars 2 does it!"

"How in the world is that even relevant? You know what? I'm done here."
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
4935
Where were these warlocks championing for mobility for all casters before the KJC nerfs were announced?


Not aware of the problem; that was my case.

You can't seriously expect me to know about other caster's problems when I never played another caster before, and I had heard brief whispers around like "Oh I can cast LB on the move now!".

I honestly never knew Spriest and Boomies had it THAT bad, but now that I do, why would I want them to have a tough time with it?

I don't want any class to have a tough time with it. If a class is more fun, then that's a plus to the game as a whole in my eyes.

You weren't balanced around having 100% uptime because you had a talent choice.

You are losing the most ridiculous talent in the game for a good reason. I know quite a few warlocks who welcome the change, although they many not like it (very high-end players in both PVE and PVP). They know the talent is too strong and breaks their class. They'd much rather have talents nerfed rather than their damage -- which is still ridiculously strong.


Most Warlocks seem to hate the change and welcome nerfs to our damage.

Our damage is getting nerfed regardless, I'd rather face a pure damage nerf rather than sneakily nerfing both our damage and mobility.

We were in fact nerfed after KJC was implemented as it is on live.

The most ridiculous? Really?

Please point out where KJC has broken the meters. Your two culprits are UVLS and MF. KJC let me have tons more fun playing the game and any damage increase it might've cost can be tuned, as well as offering other disadvantages for using the talent.

Their is a way to work this out without completely removing KJC as it stands, or gutting it.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
4935
The game can't be balanced properly until alot of melee interrupts are revoked, CC's all share the same DR, casters have to cast, and a lot of gap closers are removed as well.

There was more skill involved in lining up CC and kiting and maintaining uptime than there is now.

It's a shame. They've done it to themselves.

Remember when DoT classes were the most mobile casters? Simply because those DoTs were still ticking away?

They've made their bed and now they're going to kill locks mid expac without any buffs to MG and Incinerate/Immolate. And we all know some huge movement-requirement will exist in Siege and locks won't be able to get off a single chaos bolt without standing in crap.


I do believe that GC will balance the class eventually, I just know that the promised "compensation" is going to take a lot of trial and error to really get it right- more time is required than a single patch.

Even if I did agree to the change, it's still smarter in my eyes to nerf our damage flatly and wait for 6.0 to revamp our mobility.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
13945
We'll let all ranged cast on the move and do full damage while running around the same time that melee can swing their axes from 30 yards away.

Deal?
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
4935
So the gist of this and every other thread related to KJC can essentially be boiled down to the following:


Oh great, I don't even sense a modicum of respect from this post.

"KJC is necessary, rather than take it away, we should just give it to every caster."


I never said it was necessary. Please point out where I said that.
I said it makes the game more fun, which is definitely does.

"That is a bad idea and here is why: *list of valid reasons why changing the entire freaking paradigm of the game so warlocks can keep KJC is a bad idea*"

"Well, uh... Nuh uh, warlocks need KJC to be viable, we should just give it to every caster so we can keep KJC, it takes more skill and totally allows for more diverse encounter mechanics!"


Because that's totally what's been happening in this thread.

I've been so unreasonable, and totally disregarded the points everybody has been making instead of agreeing, rebutting, and trying to compromise.

U so smart

"Oh? How exactly is it more skillful, and how exactly does it make for more diverse encounter mechanics?"

"Um...*deflects the question*. KJC is necessary for warlocks. We should change the way the entire game works because KJC is necessary and there is no other possible alternative to having permanent 100% mobile DPS.


Oh, I deflected the question when it was brought up?
Reeeeeeally nooow?

"But Guildwars 2 does it!"

"How in the world is that even relevant? You know what? I'm done here."


Uh...

What?
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
Their is a way to work this out without completely removing KJC as it stands, or gutting it.


And that way is to change the way the entire game works so it would fit the KJC paradigm.

I mean, do you not realize how selfish you sound right now? You want to have the entire game changed around what you perceive to be "fun". Well guess what? I wouldn't have any fun whatsoever if the concept of minimizing movement as a ranged DPS disappeared from the game.

And I promise you I'm not alone.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
4935
We'll let all ranged cast on the move and do full damage while running around the same time that melee can swing their axes from 30 yards away.

Deal?


Well I was hoping for some kind of compensation for melee that made more sense.

But whatever floats your boat. /shrug
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
4935
And that way is to change the way the entire game works so it would fit the KJC paradigm.


Because Hunters never existed.

Do you know that Blizzard supports their ability to move and cast, by the way?
Their only reasoning for not supporting it for us is...

Wait for it.

They're a Ranged...

A Ranged....Melee.

Solid but juicy like a liquid.

06/17/2013 02:12 PMPosted by Kaikou
I mean, do you not realize how selfish you sound right now? You want to have the entire game changed around what you perceive to be "fun". Well guess what? I wouldn't have any fun whatsoever if the concept of minimizing movement as a ranged DPS disappeared from the game.


I want the entire game to evolve to have less inhibitions for gameplay and make playing every class more fluid.

Unless you're a fan of annoying gameplay, you would realize the merits of fluidity.

And I promise you I'm not alone.


You can promise a lot but I can link 100+ page thread filled with people who have my type of mind set.
Edited by Divergent on 6/17/2013 2:17 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
15265
I honestly never knew Spriest and Boomies had it THAT bad, but now that I do, why would I want them to have a tough time with it?


Spriest and Boomies only have it bad when you compare it to something as ridiculous as KJC. If you've never heard another caster complaining about the ridiculousness that is warlocks right now, you've chosen to be ignorant on the matter.

Am I the only one who sees the sense in GC's "hunters are a ranged melee" statement? Casters don't typically revolve around 99% of their kit being instants. Maybe it's because I mained a hunter once upon a time.
Edited by Prunekin on 6/17/2013 2:21 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
Oh, I deflected the question when it was brought up?


Yes, you did. You claimed that 100% mobile DPS increases the skill cap for warlocks, when asked how, you gave such a silly response that it could only be considered a deflection:

When you're able to move and cast, a class is typically balanced around 100% up time. Also, it makes the class have to wholly focus on the rotation.
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90 Tauren Priest
0
Am I the only one who sees the sense in GC's "hunters are a ranged melee" statement? Casters don't typically revolve around 99% of their kit being instants. Maybe it's because I mained a hunter once upon a time.


No, you're not alone. It makes complete logical sense.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
You can promise a lot but I can link 100+ page thread filled with people who have my type of mind set.


But, and here's the kicker, can you link me a thread that justifies changing the way WoW plays entirely, that takes all PvE and PvP ramifications into consideration?

I bet you can't. I bet the best you can do is link thread after thread full of warlocks who think they're politicians, trying to spin an argument that guildwars 2 does mobile caster DPS just fine, so WoW should too. That having to think about minimizing movement is a "dated", "unfun" and "annoying" concept. Then declaring that the majority agrees with them.

The funny thing is that in all of those thread, you have a greater number of people pointing out all of the very real problems this shift in game design would cause, which all get glossed over with infallible arguments like the one I quoted earlier: "Guildwars 2 does it."

Your vision of the game isn't better, it's just different.

Quoting for emphasis on the motives behind all of these silly threads:

Where were these warlocks championing for mobility for all casters before the KJC nerfs were announced?


Which you also evaded conveniently. "Oh I didn't realize the plight of the other casters until now!" Please.
Edited by Kaikou on 6/17/2013 2:51 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
13945
Hunters also deal (largely) physical damage, so armor's actually an issue.
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90 Tauren Priest
0
Your vision of the game isn't better, it's just different.


and louder.

Also has anyone considered you'd have to give healers 100% mobility as well? If all ranged were completely mobile, encounters would be balanced around being more helter-skelter, but healers cannot do helter-skelter for very long with heavy (or even moderate) damage without the raid dying or forcing your group to stack specific healer classes.

This isn't just implications about DPS. Some healers niche is mobility (Druids/MW), if every healer were fully mobile that would alter that facet of WoW as well. It's not just your pewpew lazer beams that are impacted by these sorts of ideas. It's completely game changing.
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90 Tauren Priest
0
Pointed that out. Check page 2.


Ah, I'm sorry. Thanks for mentioning it though, I feel people think it's just an oversight but it's a huge issue with this matter.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
It's completely game changing.


And as I said earlier, I promise you there isn't a single thread here that actually takes these changes into consideration. The implications of such changes run so deep that anybody declaring that everything would be just fine and WoW would be a better game for it are blatantly pushing their own personal agenda.
Edited by Kaikou on 6/17/2013 2:39 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
16345
Because Hunters never existed.Do you know that Blizzard supports their ability to move and cast, by the way?Their only reasoning for not supporting it for us is...Wait for it.They're a Ranged...A Ranged....Melee.Solid but juicy like a liquid.


So what you are saying is you want all three specs of locks to do the same damage as BM. Ya know since hunters are balanced around 100% uptime and movement.

See this is what rustles my jimmies when people compare the two. Locks full movement and PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW hunters full movement and fizzle fizzle fizzle.
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06/17/2013 02:31 PMPosted by Qùess
Your vision of the game isn't better, it's just different.


and louder.

Also has anyone considered you'd have to give healers 100% mobility as well? If all ranged were completely mobile, encounters would be balanced around being more helter-skelter, but healers cannot do helter-skelter for very long with heavy (or even moderate) damage without the raid dying or forcing your group to stack specific healer classes.

This isn't just implications about DPS. Some healers niche is mobility (Druids/MW), if every healer were fully mobile that would alter that facet of WoW as well. It's not just your pewpew lazer beams that are impacted by these sorts of ideas. It's completely game changing.


Holy and disc both have very high mobility and in fact I'm probably going to switch to my priest post patch for this very reason. They both have some very powerful instant casts. The cast time spells for both are basically filler for when the instants are on cooldown. Additionally, disc can cast penance on the move.

Ironically, holy and disc are more mobile imo than shadow. They will also be more mobile than post nerf destro or affliction.

The longer cast spells such as greater healing are so ineffectual that I've removed that from my cast bar. There is no need for it, it doesn't deliver good bang for the buck, and you don't have that many globals to spare on such a slow cast spell. A quick flash heal is good enough to tide you over. (For disc, smite spam is the filler, and no single smite is so important that you really care about missing a cast.) The longest cast spell that you really have to worry about is prayer of healing -- that one is worth casting. And if circle of healing or halo are up, you can substitute those in for poh on movement as holy. Halo in 25 man is stupidly strong, btw. POM is an instant cast that works as a sort of "cleave" heal, if you don't mind mixing metaphors.

You do have to stand still to channel divine hymn as holy, but the spell is so powerful (and has the long cooldown to prove it) that you can practically tank any incoming damage while standing still. This is one of the best cooldowns in the whole game imo.

So even on the healing front we are far from the old school turret model.

I can't comment on how other healers work, but I'm completely happy with my healing priest and nobody should be pointing that out as some kind of an exemplar for the old school. Far from it.
Edited by Sybhyl on 6/17/2013 3:09 PM PDT
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