Why bring a Windwalker?

90 Pandaren Shaman
17885
I've been wondering this for awhile. Forming a new group and I've been bouncing toons to figure out what would make the comp work the best based on what we recruit so I've been looking at my options and adjusting to make sure the group works to the best of its potential.

That said, I was really curious what makes a WW worth bringing to raids, compared to say my feral, or my rogue. I enjoy the class, but can't seem to find a reason to justify it over a brez/tranq or smokebomb (ignoring abilities that allow one to cheese mechanics like CloS / ToK).

The numbers for WW are a tad low this tier in comparison to the rest, though I'd say that's more of an issue with multi-dotting / strong cleave. Looking at averages for say Jin'rokh the spec is middle of the pack which is fine, but it feels like it hardly warrants a spot over a class that has equal, or even higher higher potential and more utility for the raid.

I know this issue has been posed multiple times throughout the expansion, but with 5.4 coming up hopefully something could be done to address this.

I realize I'm not a cutting edge raider currently and stick mostly to normal pugs atm due to a very late start I got on this patch, but it isn't an excuse to hurt a group with an all around lesser spec.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
Cant find a rogue or feral to take leather with nin leather tank? yea i know that's a tiny window lol
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90 Goblin Rogue
2690
That's the question of the expan. BM's justified their spots vs. druid tanks, MW's justify their spots vs. hps/reactive healers and trees in particular, but WW's...eh. I enjoy the spec (although I enjoy BM tanking much more), and it has all the bedrock basics baked in that you hope for in a melee dps, some that actually shine- mobility and the ability to close, personal defense cd's (dat Karma), self-heals/sustain, the ability to cleave (now)- but is missing three glaring things most other dps bring: an execute phase, burst cd's/synergy with bloodlust, and a useful raid cooldown, or cooldowns. Encounters are still designed around those three things being baked in to the dps'ers in each raid, but WW doesn't bring it. DOES bring damage and SCK. But...nah.

Sustained, long fight dps and yay for RoRo, but le sadface, overall. The "feel" of smooth, steady, zen passivity works for BM's. Not sure it "works," personally, for the current iteration o DPS role, but it's their first expan. We'll see if they figure it out. The mastery change and lolghosts were solid tweaks, and I know there are WW's out there pulling some very solid numbers on fights throughout the tier- and "bring the player, not the class," but would always pref bring/be that solid player playing kitty or rogue (or enh, @agi weaps and trinkets).
Edited by Tock on 6/16/2013 7:26 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Monk
7335
I justify my spot by telling my guild I'm working on getting my boomkin geared up. Which in all honesty, I am, but it hurts to feel to need to surrender my monk.

In a 25 man raid, it isn't an issue. There are plenty of other people to have useful raid cd's and such. In 10 man, it's a lot more restrictive, and for progression, you may need to give it everything you've got. So I've been trying to find interesting uses for ww's abilities with others.

So far I've come up with:
1) Touch of Karma+ Spirit link totem. Since spirit-link totem equalizes health on percentage, while my monk would be at 100%, and others could be dropping lower, it gives it a little bubble room after equalizing.

I feel like Tock hit the nail on the head. On fights like Maegera, we don't have a spammable execute. If we lust at the beginning of a fight, monk's are usually SoL unless they have their prepots, Xuen, and trinket procs, but even then, it's not the same.

But right now, my guild is progressing well with what it has. And while they'd rather me play a rogue or a boomkin, I love my monk.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
17885
I feel as though if Zen Meditation was made into a slightly stronger Devo Aura (since it forces the monk to channel and lose DPS so an ability that CC's the monk to use should be stronger than one that's fire and forget) the spec would be completely justifiable to bring, but at this point I'd be better off bringing any other melee in the game to get a healing or defensive CD for the raid.
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
No one wants a "invite me to raid" button. Bring Windwalker because they are good DPS. WW numbers are fine, especially with the Rune of Re-Origination.

That said, Windwalker could use a utility buff. I'm a bit skeptical of their recent talk about letting us do more healing (without losing DPS). We'll see.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
17885
Noone said anything about an "invite me to raid" button. What I'm asking is for WW to bring something to justify bringing it to a 10m raid over any other melee.

Ret: Hand Spells, Devo Aura, LoH
Enh: AG / WW Totem
War: RC / War banner
Rogues: Smoke bomb
Feral: HotW+Tranq / Battle Rez / Symbiosis (situational)
DK: AMZ / Battle Rez
WW: ?

When all melee can bring comparable DPS, why bring the one that brings nothing else?
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90 Troll Warlock
11450
WW bring Leg Sweep and the ability to switch to a tank/healer, mostly.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
When all melee can bring comparable DPS, why bring the one that brings nothing else?


You don't recruit someone's toolkit or their Raidbots spec score ranking. You recruit that person. I'm gonna say that's why.
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90 Troll Warlock
11450
06/16/2013 06:59 PMPosted by Mahourai
When all melee can bring comparable DPS, why bring the one that brings nothing else?


You don't recruit someone's toolkit or their Raidbots spec score ranking. You recruit that person. I'm gonna say that's why.

It's a combination of the two for most guilds.
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90 Human Priest
11615
You don't recruit someone's toolkit or their Raidbots spec score ranking. You recruit that person. I'm gonna say that's why.


Maybe if you're still in normal modes.

When all melee can bring comparable DPS, why bring the one that brings nothing else?


Exactly this, my balance druid is i517, rerolling to it from my i541 monk (no cloak yet), feelsbadman.
Edited by Facehurt on 6/16/2013 7:10 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Noone said anything about an "invite me to raid" button. What I'm asking is for WW to bring something to justify bringing it to a 10m raid over any other melee.

Ret: Hand Spells, Devo Aura, LoH
Enh: AG / WW Totem
War: RC / War banner
Rogues: Smoke bomb
Feral: HotW+Tranq / Battle Rez / Symbiosis (situational)
DK: AMZ / Battle Rez
WW: ?

When all melee can bring comparable DPS, why bring the one that brings nothing else?


Nothing if you line it up like that, but that is sort of asking for an "invite me" button by its very nature :P

You could put "lots of personal damage reduction CDs" or "lots of mobility" or "best DPS to respec to tank with" in there. I think it is supposed to be "lots of off healing" but you can't really take the talents that would provide this without losing lots of DPS.
Edited by Ramayana on 6/16/2013 7:16 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
11615
Nothing if you line it up like that, but that is sort of asking for an "invite me" button by its very nature :P


Asking for something that literally every other melee has?

06/16/2013 07:16 PMPosted by Ramayana
You could put "lots of personal damage reduction CDs"


Comparing classes in a vacuum is never a good idea, but monk CD's pale in comparison to a rogues, cloak of shadow and a spammable 50% shield wall. If paid class change were a thing, my monk would be a rogue in a heartbeat.

06/16/2013 07:16 PMPosted by Ramayana
"lots of mobility"


Not worth the raid slot, frequent mobility hasn't been needed at all this expansion with the exception of Heroic Lei Shen, and even then an extra raid CD is better than someone getting to a bouncing bolt before another raid member.

06/16/2013 07:16 PMPosted by Ramayana
"best DPS to respec to tank with"


Why not just pug the Brewmaster tank and pick up a better DPS spec (literally anything else is better for your raid).
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90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Comparing classes in a vacuum is never a good idea, but monk CD's pale in comparison to a rogues, cloak of shadow and a spammable 50% shield wall. If paid class change were a thing, my monk would be a rogue in a heartbeat.


Mine would too, except Rogue is mind-numbingly boring to play and lacks a bit of self-healing. There's something to be said about back to back 90% damage reduction, which a Rogue can't do, but yeah, in general, there's nothing a Rogue can't do that we can, really.

Why not just pug the Brewmaster tank and pick up a better DPS spec (literally anything else is better for your raid).


Hey, I agree. I think WW needs a utility buff.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
17885
06/16/2013 07:51 PMPosted by Ramayana
Comparing classes in a vacuum is never a good idea, but monk CD's pale in comparison to a rogues, cloak of shadow and a spammable 50% shield wall. If paid class change were a thing, my monk would be a rogue in a heartbeat.


Mine would too, except Rogue is mind-numbingly boring to play and lacks a bit of self-healing. There's something to be said about back to back 90% damage reduction, which a Rogue can't do, but yeah, in general, there's nothing a Rogue can't do that we can, really.

Why not just pug the Brewmaster tank and pick up a better DPS spec (literally anything else is better for your raid).


Hey, I agree. I think WW needs a utility buff.


Rogue self healing is getting a buff next patch, though it will stil lbe lacking. Monk damage reduction is on a CD where a rogue can keep up feint all fight if needed, as well as using cloak to completely avoid magic effects and damage which is something a monk can't do.
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100 Pandaren Monk
12405
i feel that ww monks are getting heavily out classed in this expansion. Even if our damage is good other classes are so much better because of the "design" issues that the dev's have purposely put into our class to make us "unique", that we are not much help. and therefore, we are not terribly sought after for raid spots. 10man is rough, especially for heroics, because we need every player to pull as much weight as possible. and i hate knowing that no matter my gear or skill level, because my class has these fundamental shortfalls, i'm a detriment to them.

I'm able to rank on world of logs but in my raid group i'm often dead last on our dps meters.

I feel that there are 2 things in particular that we really need to be up to par with all the other classes.
1) a natural cleave
2) burst at the start of fights

the cleave we have is only good on fights where each target is equally important to kill (dogs). when there is a priority target SE&F is no good (Horridon, council, meg, primord). our fist of fury has the ability to cleave but it is not good for it. if we had one of our abilities that just naturally hits the things around our main target we'd be much better off.

We are suppose to be able to maintain good static dps, but that only pans out for us when we dont have to switch targets, which is all the time, and when the mob we need to kill is going to stick around for a while.

Like someone has said, its a raid design issue as much as it is a class issue. I'd agree with that. BUT if the WW monks were more capable in more situations then raid fights could be much more unique and WW would be capable in them all.
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100 Orc Warrior
15270
You don't recruit someone's toolkit or their Raidbots spec score ranking. You recruit that person. I'm gonna say that's why.

Not even close to true, unfortunately. DPS balance comes and goes, but a classes toolkit is the main reason we will recruit someone.

Of course the player's personality, history, performance etc all comes into play when deciding the outcome of an app, the what a class brings is what decides openings.

OT: I completely agree, WW is lacking right now. Their DPS is in a pretty good place, but not much else. While I guess the 2 raid buffs they provide might be of value to a 10 man, I raid 25s so buffs have zero consideration to us.

The only thing even remotely useful is the ability to solo soak a static shock on heroic Lei Shen.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
WW bring Leg Sweep and the ability to switch to a tank/healer, mostly.


lmao only a pure would say this without knowing how retarded an answer this is.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11510
Not even close to true, unfortunately. DPS balance comes and goes, but a classes toolkit is the main reason we will recruit someone.


A class's toolkit comes and goes as well, though?
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