Raid team poaching?

90 Night Elf Druid
14065
My server is fairly low in population and my guild is new(ish) and small, but we are building an excellent core raid team that is having more success than many other guilds on the server. In the 5 months we've been raiding as a team we've cleared t14 content and are working on Tortos. We could very well be much farther along in t15, but as RL I felt it was important to grow as a team before jumping right into end game. It has worked, and we are in the top 7 for guild progression.

That being said, we're getting noticed more on the realm. People ask me quite often if there are spots available for them, even if its just as a fill-in for a night or two. The attention is great; it usually means that on the rare chance that we DO need a pug, we usually have a large pool to choose from. But last night something happened that is bugging me and I want to know if I'm just overreacting or if I am justified in feeling the way I do.

I got a whisper from a player who is a raider for the top guild on the server. He asked if and when we were raiding this week...which I told him yes, fri/sat...and then proceeded to tell me that his team was going to be short 2 dps and asked if I had anyone on my team that would like to join them for a full clear on wed/thurs night. I was shocked. And then got angry. He totally ignored the fact that we were planning a run this week and basically asked if he could poach 2 of my raiders for his group's raid! Taking 2 from my team would basically shut us down for the week! I give him props for not going behind my back, but I still felt slighted that he completely disregarded my answer about our planned run. I did suggest that we had a few with alts that might be available, but he wasn't really interested in alts. Or pugging /trade.

I just thought, how arrogant!!! I know you're the top raiders on the server, and a lot of people would be happy to join u for a clear. And they probably would pull their weight. But really...you have to go ask the RL of a guild that is making progress for permission to poach their raiders so that you can get a run in?

Seriously, I can't figure out why he would do that. Am I just overreacting? And, I'm wondering if this is going to continue to happen as we get farther along.

Oh, and before you ask, I did ask members of my team if they wanted to join them for a run and all I asked said no...
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90 Draenei Priest
17825
06/19/2013 05:03 AMPosted by Poknbeans
Seriously, I can't figure out why he would do that.


Because he's human. No, seriously, he was putting his own needs above the needs of a group of people he doesn't know or care about. And being in your server's top guild puts him in a position (whether justified or not) to feel like he can, essentially, ask for anything he wants.

If it happens again, tell him no, just like you did. You can be polite about it, but be firm. "As our team has a raid later in the week, we don't have any raiders to spare. Thank you for asking, but we can't help you. Good luck."

Don't burn bridges. You may need to ask a favor of them someday.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10855
He wasn't poaching, he was asking if you have extras. People ask all the time and they do so because they are between a rock and a hard place and need more bodies, but they don't want to put their team in a position where they are wiping all night due to an incompetent pug or a severely undergeared alt. I get one of those whispers weekly, if not more often, and I basically decline if I know there is no one available or provide a name (after asking the member first if they wish to go represent the guild with another team for a night). That guild likely has no clue how many people you have on your team and is trying to pick up your benches. When you need folks, you can ask them too.

If you find people are asking your players to fill in AND then offering them raid spots, that's cause for halting all communication with that guild and identifying them as a poacher.
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90 Goblin Rogue
9445
My server is fairly low in population and my guild is new(ish) and small, but we are building an excellent core raid team that is having more success than many other guilds on the server. In the 5 months we've been raiding as a team we've cleared t14 content and are working on Tortos. We could very well be much farther along in t15, but as RL I felt it was important to grow as a team before jumping right into end game. It has worked, and we are in the top 7 for guild progression.

That being said, we're getting noticed more on the realm. People ask me quite often if there are spots available for them, even if its just as a fill-in for a night or two. The attention is great; it usually means that on the rare chance that we DO need a pug, we usually have a large pool to choose from. But last night something happened that is bugging me and I want to know if I'm just overreacting or if I am justified in feeling the way I do.

I got a whisper from a player who is a raider for the top guild on the server. He asked if and when we were raiding this week...which I told him yes, fri/sat...and then proceeded to tell me that his team was going to be short 2 dps and asked if I had anyone on my team that would like to join them for a full clear on wed/thurs night. I was shocked. And then got angry. He totally ignored the fact that we were planning a run this week and basically asked if he could poach 2 of my raiders for his group's raid! Taking 2 from my team would basically shut us down for the week! I give him props for not going behind my back, but I still felt slighted that he completely disregarded my answer about our planned run. I did suggest that we had a few with alts that might be available, but he wasn't really interested in alts. Or pugging /trade.

I just thought, how arrogant!!! I know you're the top raiders on the server, and a lot of people would be happy to join u for a clear. And they probably would pull their weight. But really...you have to go ask the RL of a guild that is making progress for permission to poach their raiders so that you can get a run in?

Seriously, I can't figure out why he would do that. Am I just overreacting? And, I'm wondering if this is going to continue to happen as we get farther along.

Oh, and before you ask, I did ask members of my team if they wanted to join them for a run and all I asked said no...


You should be flattered.
He was asking if you had raiders who were available.
He asked because you might have had either extra raiders or someone who could not make your raid that week.
You are correct, he could pull in anyone he wanted, but he wanted your raiders because of
your reputation.
Be cordial, you never know when you might need a pug, you could ask him if he has any geared alts or raiders not saved to help you if your raid is short.
Having agreements with other guilds to fill in is much better than a random pug.
I would have that conversation with him.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
I hope you didn't say anything to the guy that got him the impression you were angry because what he did was reasonable. You scratch their back, they scratch yours sort of thing.

Absolutely nothing wrong with what he did.
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90 Night Elf Druid
14065
I don't understand why anyone would think its reasonable to have me ask a couple of my raid team members to go raid with another guild for a week or two when the rest of my team would no longer able to raid. We could raid, but then WE would be the ones pugging /trade. Or at the very least we would be forced to change our own strats because we would be raiding with alts. Read my original...the guy was NOT interested in our alts. Whoops, sorry. I guess I didn't explicitly say that we have no bench. Many times on raid nights, there are only 10 people in my guild on line and we are all in Throne of Thunder.

Personally, I think Solaeris is right. They guy was being an elitist and putting his needs above anyone elses. I was not, nor will I ever be rude to him or anyone else. I'm GM and I hold my guild to high standards as far as server kinship goes. We're all hanging out together on a low pop server, and we all pretty much need to get along in order to 'survive'.
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90 Draenei Priest
17825
06/19/2013 07:38 AMPosted by Poknbeans
Personally, I think Solaeris is right. They guy was being an elitist and putting his needs above anyone elses.


Well no, I don't think he was being elitist. While he was putting his needs above everyone else's, that's human nature. And when you're at the top, you have your pick of the litter - figuratively speaking. Asking you if you had anyone who would be interested in helping them out is fine; there was nothing wrong with that. Ignoring your reply that your team had a raid later in the week, that's the only part I take issue with. But there could be many reasons; do you have a bench? If so, how many people? Are there people who would be out on your raid days that could, potentially, fill in a spot with this other guild? I don't know what this guy was thinking, but there really was no harm in him asking. Which is why my advice was to be firm but polite in saying no because you never know when you may need a favor from them.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10855
You're missing something: He has absolutely no way of knowing that your team will not be able to raid if you lend out your members. He does not have psychic powers. How could he possibly know how many members you have on during raids and how many are standing by or benched?

He does not want your alts because alts are often not geared or the people playing them are not experts in that class.
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Not only that, did he know what you were raiding? Maybe he is doing a different raid, I lend out my members all the time, but most places are already in ToT while we are still in MSV. I would not necessarily consider it poaching.
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90 Human Warrior
16445
Deep breath and calm down. It happens ALL the time. Its called networking.

I can name 5 guilds on my server right now that I can call on for extras and they can call on me. If it doesn't work out due to schedules, it doesn't work out. But its sure nice to know those resources are available. Those guilds also know that I will not recruit from them during these exchanges (its specifically stated btw, not implied). It works out great for all parties involved. Some weeks I have a few raiders who due to work or social schedules can't make the scheduled raid nights so they actually are not available for us. But they get a raid in anyway because I've networked and have good relations with a number of guilds. And those guilds...well they supply me with a nice pool of competent reserve players to fill in the occasional empty spot here/there. Often times if somebody is under performing on progression and we need to bench them, I can call on these friends in other guilds to step in and wipe with us!

Again, its a good thing. If he was trying to 'poach' raiders from you he wouldn't whisper you for help. He'd whisper the people he was interested in and ask them if they wanted to go. You would have no idea. Then one day - poof - they're gone. Or he'd advertise for pugs to fill those slots and pugs that would come.

Relax, its a common practice and very helpful when you find the right people to exchange with.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9355
Exactly what Khahan said. When other raid leaders ask me for raiders, I see who's available. Then, later, I ask them. The top raid team on the server is particularly valuable for you to network with because they will have geared alts that may be available for your runs and know the fights in and out.

I think it's unusual to only have 10 raiders. In this case you can politely tell him that you don't have any raiders to spare. I'd offer him some alts anyway if you have raiders with geared alts.
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90 Draenei Paladin
11100
06/19/2013 07:38 AMPosted by Poknbeans
I don't understand why anyone would think its reasonable to have me ask a couple of my raid team members to go raid with another guild for a week or two when the rest of my team would no longer able to raid.


The answers were very clear, you just seem to be too worked up to read clearly. The guy obviously thought you had a bench, and was asking if you had 2 players to spare. If he wanted to poach your raiders he wouldn't have contacted you at all.

It would be a very beneficial arrangement to periodically swap bench players when short-handed, and to have a good relationship with another RL. Versus getting offended and upset over a misunderstanding.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
I don't understand why anyone would think its reasonable to have me ask a couple of my raid team members to go raid with another guild for a week or two when the rest of my team would no longer able to raid. We could raid, but then WE would be the ones pugging /trade. Or at the very least we would be forced to change our own strats because we would be raiding with alts. Read my original...the guy was NOT interested in our alts. Whoops, sorry. I guess I didn't explicitly say that we have no bench. Many times on raid nights, there are only 10 people in my guild on line and we are all in Throne of Thunder.

Personally, I think Solaeris is right. They guy was being an elitist and putting his needs above anyone elses. I was not, nor will I ever be rude to him or anyone else. I'm GM and I hold my guild to high standards as far as server kinship goes. We're all hanging out together on a low pop server, and we all pretty much need to get along in order to 'survive'.


You know what you should feel honored, that he asked you... why ? his guild is the top guild on your server, they did not get that way by being lazy they got that way because he recruited the best raiders he could.. By him coming to you he is saying hey I think your raid team and your progression is good and I respect what you are doing.. do you have anyone you can spare.. instead of getting your panties all in a wad.. you could have just Said ... Sorry man we just run a strict 10 man roster. My raiders are raiding with the guild on their mains.. Now I can see if any have some geared alts and if they do and it does not interfere with the guild raid , they are welcome to tag along

I sure hope you kept your feelings to yourself.. if you did not then consider that a lost opportunity and the next time someone comes looking to do not be so quick to accuse them of something sleazy
Edited by Ssinfull on 6/19/2013 4:38 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
He does not have psychic powers


If the dude is really as good as he thinks is, he would be able to read minds.

Seriously, when people interact with me and can't read my mind, it's just annoying and lets me know they're beneath me.
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90 Tauren Druid
7035
I sure hope you kept your feelings to yourself.. if you did not then consider that a lost opportunity and the next time someone comes looking to do not be so quick to accuse them of something sleazy


I'm going to differ from other posters.

No, you're not overreacting; your number one priority is to look out for your guild and your raiders. While there is such a thing as keeping cordial relationships with other guilds, you don't have such a formal relationship with this one, and to be asked out of the blue to compromise your own raiding schedule in favor of theirs is like bending over and asking to take it.

The other guy was just plain asking too much of you and wasn't thinking of your raid at all.

The answers were very clear, you just seem to be too worked up to read clearly. The guy obviously thought you had a bench, and was asking if you had 2 players to spare. If he wanted to poach your raiders he wouldn't have contacted you at all.


No, the other guy contacted him because he was thinking of what's best for his own raid team.

Relax, its a common practice and very helpful when you find the right people to exchange with.


It's hardly common and only works if the guilds in question have a cordial relationship. Guilds without such a thing will never have this happen.
Edited by Seiryu on 6/19/2013 11:35 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
18030
Maybe he meant from your guild when he asked if any dps on your team wanted to come in
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
It's hardly common and only works if the guilds in question have a cordial relationship. Guilds without such a thing will never have this happen.


And just how do you think Cordial relationships are started and developed?? Certainly when someone first contacts you by not calling them some nefarious sleazebag and accuse them of poaching. I think that would have an obvious negative affect.

The Op is entitled to his opinion I happen as others not to agree with it.. However the Op should keep in mind that eventually the shoe will be on the other foot and he will be short a raider ( esp since he does not have a bench) I guess if that happens.. and he asks friends who are guilded in other guilds if they can come help or even pugs ,,, then he too is poaching
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90 Draenei Death Knight
4540
OP, I can feel for you, every time I've had the slightest success in terms of a raid team, other people on the server start to notice, and then start to ask for members to fill up their raid teams, and next thing ya know, got no raiding guild left, it's why it's more important than ever to treat your guildies well and make them feel like you value them not just because of their amazing skills but make them feel good about themselves as people, as well, because the bottom line is, that this good player is after people to fill his ranks, he doesn't know them. I think the best raid teams are the ones where you know deep in your heart, that the people you are doing it with are close friends?
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90 Human Warrior
16445
06/20/2013 04:15 AMPosted by Eliil
it's why it's more important than ever to treat your guildies well and make them feel like you value them not just because of their amazing skills but make them feel good about themselves as people,


This may be one of the smartest things Eliil has said on these boards. One reason I have no problem with this kind of relationship is that I work my hardest to deliver a great raid experience to my raiders. I don't live in fear of them jumping ship to greener pastures. And, like I said, its explicitly stated that, "hey, I won't recruit your guys on these exchanges and you won't recruit mine." I don't assume anything.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10855
Nothing can kill a guild's reputation faster than being known server-wide as a confirmed and deliberate poacher. No one will help them when they're struggling, no one will use their members as pugs or want them, and everyone will be happy when they collapse. One would have to be a moron to go that route. Just another reason I don't think this is a case of poaching.
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