Is it really difficult to raid as a WW?

90 Pandaren Monk
10010
Is it really this difficult to raid?! I have been trying to get on a raid team within my guild, and it has been difficult! Granted my gear isn't enchanted, but that's mainly cause I want to finish my LFR's this week. (Just hit 90 a few days ago)

When the new team was being built I said I was interested in WW Monk...immediately turned into a debate saying I should go MW blah blah.

His last reply was fair..see below

"It's a question of math more than anything. In 10 man, you want 2 melee dps max. Top DPS for melee is as follows (last time I checked melee parses):

DK
Warrior
Rogue
Kitty Druid-hybrid crossover, still has tranq, off healing capability
WW Monk-poorly designed hybrid, no crossover ability
Ret Pally-hybrid crossover, still has LoH, blessings, off healing capability, free heals if managing your holy power

Not only that, but monks share a buff w/ druids and paladins, two other more useful hybrid classes. On top of that, healing monks are incredibly OP at the moment and tanking monks, while not terribly strong, have a very good defensive CD kit. To be viable in 10s, the WW monk has to be both extraordinary AND several other common classes not be present. You are demanding to play the least desired spec in the game. Not to mention, in my opinion, dps monks (I do have one) is the most boring dps of all of them ranged or otherwise.

Beyond that, your argument that you leveled the monk in two days and got him to ilvl 488 in two days seems to lend itself pretty well to the counter argument that if you managed all that, it would take what? 3 days to get a healing set together? Play what you want, but a mediocre healing monk is preferable to a very good dps monk at the moment. Also, again, this is purely my opinion, but leadership should be about what's best for the team, not necessarily what we personally desire to do. Because of this, every raiding toon I've ever had has ended up as a healer or a tank (barring a brief stint as a fury warrior in ICC to get Shadowmourne) b/c those classes bear the most responsibility."

Is this really my only option when it comes to raiding? I really enjoy my monk, the whole reason I leveled him was for dps (possible tank... cause BM is fun! :P)

TLDR;

DAMN YOU BLIZZARD! :P
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90 Pandaren Monk
8045
I've noticed a similar problem with all hybrids in this game. Blizzard always seems to neglect the DPS spec. With monks, brewmasters are pretty good and mistweavers aren't terrible either. With druids, nobody wants a feral kitty because they can have either a boomkin or a resto druid healer provide the same exact utility and the boomkin will do more damage. Paladin? Either go prot or holy or you're not wanted.

Blizz really needs to give the hybrid DPS specs something to differentiate them from the tanking and healing specs of the class. Give the DPS specs something neither the tank or heal spec have, but that is useful to a raid to give justification for bringing that hybrid as a dps rather than a tank or heals.

I'm also not a fan of hybrids in general doing lower DPS, whether intentional or not. Why bring a feral kitty or a WW monk when you can bring an assassin rogue and that rogue will do twice the damage AND bring more utility? Shouldn't it be the hybrids having more utility, not the pures?

A lot of what was said in that reply though is part of why I just flat out stopped doing PvE content and now mostly focus on PvP. This is a game, and to me a game is about having fun and doing what I want to do to have fun. I don't like to feel like I'm forced into playing a certain spec of a class because "it'll hurt the raid" if I do. At least with PvP I can queue whenever I want for arenas or RBGs, I never have to have a set schedule, and I only usually have 2 other teammates and not 9 to 24 other people to "dissapoint" for playing the "wrong" class. If you're a skilled player, almost any class/spec can be 2.2k viable.
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90 Gnome Monk
7335
I believe it never hurts to give any player a try at something. My guild reached 11/12 progression with me on my monk, but they still want me to play my rogue instead, because a rogue has attack speed, and smoke bomb for 20% aoe reduction.

It's like all the survivability my monk has suddenly doesn't matter, because we're just average, and in 10 man, every spot matters.
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90 Draenei Monk
11990
I believe it never hurts to give any player a try at something. My guild reached 11/12 progression with me on my monk, but they still want me to play my rogue instead, because a rogue has attack speed, and smoke bomb for 20% aoe reduction.

It's like all the survivability my monk has suddenly doesn't matter, because we're just average, and in 10 man, every spot matters.


Because rogues have on par if not greater solo survival AND THEY BRING RAID UTILITY.

I'm tellin' you, statue of Xuen like 2k mastery lasts 20 seconds grants 10 stacks of tiger's eye brew. BOOM raid utility and now you can actually be edited:~~usually~~ usefull with off the bat heroism pops.
Edited by Zuana on 6/19/2013 5:19 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
10010
I guess i'm going try tanking the new 10 man group...sucks I can't be a dps but whatever gets me raiding I guess! :P
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100 Gnome Monk
11845
Like I and others have said in other threads in the DD forums, WW monks are unslottable in 10-mans.

Give it a try.

http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=1udo6p9ix3000000000000000000000000000000

This is the best I've come up with, but you could easily replace the WW with a rogue and you have great utility, and top dps.

WW's need to bring another buff and/or have some niche raid utility or they'll continue to be unslottable.
Edited by Seshel on 6/19/2013 7:40 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Monk
9610
despite what others may think about how windwalker monks do dps wise, we do good dps, provided you are enchanted, gemmed, and reforged properly. i usually do top dps in my raid group, though we are only 3/12 progression. i've also done pugs. though our dps takes a bit of time to build up while others are bursting, as my dps goes up and plateau, while others go up and plateau less than me. we do great cleave damage, and great single target as well. this whole saying that our good dps relies on the rune of re-origination trinket is bs. i do great dps and people dont expect that as i am a monk. lol.
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100 Gnome Monk
11845
despite what others may think about how windwalker monks do dps wise, we do good dps, provided you are enchanted, gemmed, and reforged properly. i usually do top dps in my raid group, though we are only 3/12 progression. i've also done pugs. though our dps takes a bit of time to build up while others are bursting, as my dps goes up and plateau, while others go up and plateau less than me. we do great cleave damage, and great single target as well. this whole saying that our good dps relies on the rune of re-origination trinket is bs. i do great dps and people dont expect that as i am a monk. lol.


Forgive me if I don't accept your anecdotal evidence as sufficient enough to dispel all mathematical evidence to the contrary.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
9610
i'm not asking you to. in honesty i dont really care about all these mathematical statistics that are done to show who top dps is, because in the long run, people with great gear, but bad rotations will be... well, bad.
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100 Gnome Monk
11845
i'm not asking you to. in honesty i dont really care about all these mathematical statistics that are done to show who top dps is, because in the long run, people with great gear, but bad rotations will be... well, bad.


That's nice. Seems irrelevant to the topic though.
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90 Pandaren Monk
18100
10 stacks at all times that build up like soul shards do (disabled in arenas if need be but start with it in the gate at least)

A raid CD (they said something about healing being a WW monk's niche when asked about the whole "healing being less of a dps loss" thing so not sure what they're going on about. Chi Wave and Expel Harm were both dps gains last I heard).

Then there is my bit of a personal complaint, but something that actually matters damage wise when off a target for a short bit. Pretty much every spec has SOME form of off target sustained through dots, and I know it's class flavor, but it hurts especially in PvP when peeled. (Though I don't care as much about this happening)
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10 stacks at all times that build up like soul shards do (disabled in arenas if need be but start with it in the gate at least)

A raid CD (they said something about healing being a WW monk's niche when asked about the whole "healing being less of a dps loss" thing so not sure what they're going on about. Chi Wave and Expel Harm were both dps gains last I heard).

Then there is my bit of a personal complaint, but something that actually matters damage wise when off a target for a short bit. Pretty much every spec has SOME form of off target sustained through dots, and I know it's class flavor, but it hurts especially in PvP when peeled. (Though I don't care as much about this happening)


I send a clone and maybe a fire blossom. W/e it takes hehe.
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This is one of the reasons i haven't pursued anything serious with this character. I don't want to have to justify my spot to anyone lol. I'll just shelve for pvp and pick up something the group needs instead for pve
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90 Orc Monk
9355
This is one of the reasons i haven't pursued anything serious with this character. I don't want to have to justify my spot to anyone lol. I'll just shelve for pvp and pick up something the group needs instead for pve

I cannot say that I have a ton of experience this tier. I quit 'hardcore raiding' mid-t14 and just came back. There are three things I want to agree with that I've read.

1) WW is almost unslottable in 10m
2) WW brings good damage
3) WW has zero raid utility

The first one is a combination of zero raid utility and brining buffs that are already brought. Let's be honest, almost every 10m has a mage in it. They are good DPS, range, and have TW. Those three factors ensure them being brought. That eliminates our only slottability in 10m - the crit strike buff.

They need to really add the mastery and 10 stack CD. I'm 100% on board with this. Tweak the numbers down a small fraction on RSK or BoK if you need to (as well as making FoF 100% better because it's crap in comparison).

WW does actually bring good DPS - HOWEVER it's solely dependant on good weapons and RoRo. I'm an extremely good player (just super casual now), and I have to fight tooth and nail to get to where others are without RoRo. I can almost guarantee you see a 20% increase in DPS after acquiring that trinket if you know how to use it.

TLDR; WW brings good DPS but it's required to have RoRo and good weapons. If you do not have that, and are trying to get into 10m, you have zero chance with zero raid utility.
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100 Pandaren Monk
18665
In all honesty at this point you are talking about content that if you still are doing normal's you are not in a real high end raid progression guild so does it REALLY matter? Yes using parsers and meters DPS monks are a hard pick for 10 mans due to lack of raid utility. But if you are again in said guild then if you are a good player who can follow mechanics and do your rotation well you will find most likely you will be near the top. Not because the class is that good but because you most likely have others who are just not that good of a player to min/max their class (which is better).

As far as having you do tank or heals, i would say that is a logical question to ask because MW in 10 mans are gods and BrM are good tanks, just require a bigger learning curve then most tanks.

i am against the logic of using raid parsers from high end guilds just to decide your raid makeup due to that there are more to those meters then JUST the class it is also the player behind it. If everything else was equal (aka players skill/ players gear / players ability to follow mechanics) then i would agree WW monks are a hard sell since they offer nothing unique and no utility at all. But my experience most guilds that is not the case you always have a bad dps that can not do mechanics and dies or a good mechanics person that just can not push the numbers that the class has show is possible, and at times like that a solid WW monk can easily replace that person.
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100 Gnome Monk
11845
06/20/2013 07:22 AMPosted by Zexualharas
In all honesty at this point you are talking about content that if you still are doing normal's you are not in a real high end raid progression guild so does it REALLY matter?


Raid comp matter less, but it still matters. At some point, even the most casual of raid leaders is going to look at what buffs are covered and what is missing, and in almost all scenarios what's missing is not going to be covered by a WW monk even if that WW monk is a better player, it may weigh against the raid DPS increase of say...having the Attack Speed increase buff.

06/20/2013 07:22 AMPosted by Zexualharas
i am against the logic of using raid parsers from high end guilds just to decide your raid makeup due to that there are more to those meters then JUST the class it is also the player behind it.


Yeah, this is true especially for normals. The angle this particular raid leader is taking is odd.

Bottom line, WW monks should be on an even playing field and they simply aren't right now.
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90 Orc Monk
9995

WW does actually bring good DPS - HOWEVER it's solely dependant on good weapons and RoRo. I'm an extremely good player (just super casual now), and I have to fight tooth and nail to get to where others are without RoRo. I can almost guarantee you see a 20% increase in DPS after acquiring that trinket if you know how to use it.
.


RoR is a fairly big damage upgrade, but you aren't completely dead weight prior to owning one. I was generally top five in our 25 man just using the VP trinket and Bad Juju. All that math in the world doesn't mean !@#$ when you factor in human error, and the players skill. I just got my RoR this week and it is a substantial upgrade, but you can still be viable without one.

I don't think our DPS is currently a big deal, but the issue is that outside of that we are basically useless. Nine times out of ten you would probably be better off using a rogue to fill the melee spot. I can see that being even more obvious in a 10 man setting. Some sort of damage reduction raid cooldown would fix a lot. :(
Edited by Downwithopp on 6/20/2013 10:53 AM PDT
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90 Human Monk
16710
(PLEASE LIKE IF YOU AGREE - BLIZZARD MIGHT READ POSTS WITH HIGH "LIKE" COUNTS)

Here, let me spell it out for you.

I am 10/13HM atm in 10 man raid. I usually parse top 50 on many fight this tier.

I might be considered "high end" or I might not be, depending on perspective. But let me share my experience raiding in heroic mode in 10 man settings.

1) Starting off with some of my raid leader's quotes:

  • "I wish Ses played a more useful class"
  • (When I talk about how I parsed) "Parse top 20, still bottom on damage lol"


  • 2) WW monk in 10 man settings have 5 problems at the moment: UTILITY, UTILITY, UTILITY, UTILITY, and UTILITY. I've played this game since 2007, and witnessed how Blizzard had done many stuff that made no sense in the past before, but I'm still perplexed on how they still don't get it nor acknowledge the issue. WW Monk is not desirable in RBG or 10 man PvE, not because of damage, but lack of useful utility. The only debuff we bring to raid is healing, and two buffs are stats/crit that many classes can already do. Otherwise we're just a damage robot and can't do much else.

    Going class by class, purely non-talent related:
    Druid - Rebirth, HotW Tranq
    Rogue - Smokebomb
    Warrior - Banners
    Mage - Time Warp
    Hunter - Any buffs/debuffs at disposal (BM only. Though MM/SV almost have all)
    DK - Raise Ally, Army (for adds. Ex: HM Lei Shi)
    Warlock - Healthstone, Portals
    Shaman - Heroism, Stormlash Totem
    Priest - Hymn of Hope, (Healing) Bubble/Divine Hymn, (Shadow) VE
    Paladin - BoP, Freedom, Sac/Salv, Devo Aura, LoH
    Monk - ?????????????

    (p.s. how about making RoP baseline ability, and make it reduce damage of every allies inside of RoP by 20% or something?)

    3) Our single-target raid damage is splendid and competitive. Our short-term multi-target dps (2-5 targets), however, is piss poor. EWF is badly designed and doesn't help our dps much. Check out the parse below for HM Council (Mage and Warlock didn't even rank. Mind you, I "ranked" 14. Whoopty-Do)

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4dren5urhqjlq9ir/sum/damageDone/?s=2847&e=3226#Ses




    So that sums up my experience. I can only pray that Blizzard will read this and see it from our point of view for once.
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    90 Pandaren Monk
    15350
    Not to mention, in my opinion, dps monks (I do have one) is the most boring dps of all of them ranged or otherwise.


    Tell him his opinion is bad and he should feel bad.

    Also, unless he plans on going from 0/12 to 13/13 in as little time as possible (As in, he wants to compete with Midwinter/Blood Legion etc) then there's not a problem. WW Monks are like the Warlocks of melee, being the most durable out of them all. While it's true we don't bring any utility outside of poison/disease dispels on Horridon and extreme mobility (Hopefully we'll get a healing CD or something next patch) it shouldn't be that necessary for normal progression raiding for every DPS to have a raid CD or something.

    Our damage is fine/competitive too once we get ReRo. Heck, it's somewhat competitive without it. I pull 125-180K depending on the fight without ReRo and match our DK and Mage or pull ahead often.
    Edited by Toshu on 6/21/2013 5:56 AM PDT
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    90 Blood Elf Monk
    14665
    i wonder how can i "have fun" in a game if i can't do what i like to do (raids) because people won't take me in the class and spec i like to play.
    if i wanted to be a healer i'd go priest and if i wanted to be a tank i'd go dk, but i like dps.
    make us viable for raiding, blizzard!!!
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