Haste on protection Tier

90 Blood Elf Paladin
13850
I've been raiding since MoP came out as the main tank of my guild, happily using the haste build, as it was proved to be viable (and even more) by Theck. My question is, why the hell Blizzard is still not adding haste to our prot tiers? I mean it's fun and all to be able to use Tier gear for bonuses, but i've pretty much skipped it so far since there is no haste on it, and dodge/parry are not as good survivability wise as haste would be!

Please Blizzard get some haste in there!!!!
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
My guess is that they believe that adding haste to tier will mean that they're supporting haste as the best gearing strategy. They've pretty much been "we don't support it, but we don't want to break it right now either" this whole expansion.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13850
well...if they care enough to make prot warriors benefit from crit, might as well push the haste model for paladins even further! I mean, it's part of their tank perspective for MoP with the whole active mitigation, and it's working! Most of paladins out there have had a blast tanking as prot since MoP (and i've been tanking since Ulduar).
Druids and monks are already using ''dps'' stats as a core part of their tanking stats, i dont see why we shouldn't and wouldn't as protection paladins if it's viable enough for us, because no matter what, i don't think people will like blizzard to move back to old boring stats-_-

WE WANT MOAR HASTE! BRING IT!:D
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90 Human Paladin
10760
06/20/2013 12:59 PMPosted by Yc
well...if they care enough to make prot warriors benefit from crit,

...have they actually done that?

I mean, I see the change which makes dodge/parry provide crit, but that doesn't make them want to use crit gear, it makes them want to use dodge/parry gear even more.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13850
I mean, I see the change which makes dodge/parry provide crit, but that doesn't make them want to use crit gear, it makes them want to use dodge/parry gear even more.


True, but we actually benefit more from stacking haste than dodge/parry, Theck on Sacred Duty proved many times that dodge/parry stacking as we used to do in earlier xpacs makes us a lot more vulnerable to spike damage than stacking mastery/haste along with hit/exp capped. Might as well give people who use the haste build a chance to benefit from Tier bonuses without losing much haste, and to those who dont use haste yet to see the stat's potential.
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90 Human Paladin
12255
Why can't Blizzard game developers just scrap devoted tanking stats (dodge and parry) entirely. I would tank again if crit, haste, and mastery all affected my tanking abilities in different ways (maybe crit also provides dodge). Then we could be more like monk and druid tanks who use dps stats to tank.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
06/20/2013 01:20 PMPosted by Ravicana
well...if they care enough to make prot warriors benefit from crit,

...have they actually done that?

I mean, I see the change which makes dodge/parry provide crit, but that doesn't make them want to use crit gear, it makes them want to use dodge/parry gear even more.


Enrage will proc off of Shield Slam and Devastate crits, so it works out to some extra rage and Enrage uptime (which is a damage buff and buffs Enraged Regeneration if you talent that). So it's more than purely the raw damage from critting with the ability.

Riposte + the Enrage change are really minor band-aid fixes and won't fix the issues with Prot Warrior damage output by themselves, but yeah they're a nice start. (Blood DK's get the same Riposte benefit as well, but they have no real synergy with critical strike and would likely be reforging Haste over Dodge/Parry anyways, so it's even sillier there.)

Why can't Blizzard game developers just scrap devoted tanking stats (dodge and parry) entirely. I would tank again if crit, haste, and mastery all affected my tanking abilities in different ways (maybe crit also provides dodge). Then we could be more like monk and druid tanks who use dps stats to tank.


True, but we actually benefit more from stacking haste than dodge/parry, Theck on Sacred Duty proved many times that dodge/parry stacking as we used to do in earlier xpacs makes us a lot more vulnerable to spike damage than stacking mastery/haste along with hit/exp capped. Might as well give people who use the haste build a chance to benefit from Tier bonuses without losing much haste, and to those who dont use haste yet to see the stat's potential.


Both very true. The issue is that Blizzard kinda painted themselves into a corner with Dodge/Parry ratings this expansion. With MoP, we went from "Block cap and then stack Stam, pop a cooldown for important stuff, just go through your damage rotation the rest of the time" to having a really interesting defense-oriented rotation with a stat priority to suit. Dodge and Parry ratings are relics of past expansions when we really didn't care about the stats on our gear too much, and they don't feed into our (or really, any tank's) system or toolkit.

I completely agree. Even the tank classes that care about avoidance will look at the diminishing returns on or the passive mechanic behind Dodge/Parry rating, or compare them to Agility (or for monks, Crit rating) and just say "wow that is just horrible". They need to be scrapped.

Problem is that Blizz really can't remove such prevalent stats mid-expansion. That would require such a ridiculously huge overhaul to everything. They'd need to not only replace so much gear, but also tune the plate tanks to all scale (relatively) equally well with Haste and Crit. It's just not going to happen mid-expansion.

I have no doubt that Dodge and Parry ratings will not exist, or at least won't exist in their current form, in the next expansion. I'm sure we'll have some sort of avoidance mechanic - Parry scaling from Strength, hopefully we'll all get something cool the way Monks get Elusive Brew from Crit. idk
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90 Human Paladin
10760
06/24/2013 05:22 PMPosted by Tailias
Enrage will proc off of Shield Slam and Devastate crits, so it works out to some extra rage and Enrage uptime (which is a damage buff and buffs Enraged Regeneration if you talent that). So it's more than purely the raw damage from critting with the ability.

Right, I get that, but prot warriors won't be ditching avoidance gear for crit gear the way we go for haste gear. It's strange to compare that to the paladin/haste situation, is my point.
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90 Human Paladin
5205
Though I support (I jumped lately, but I did nonetheless) taking dodge and parry away from gear, I wouldn't like that dodge and parry disappear conceptually from the game. It just doesn't make sense.

If you see a massive weapon moving towards you, wouldn't you try to evade or stop it first?

With that said, I support the scaling of these from basic stats, like strength does with parry. Dunno, though, what we can convert to dodge. Agility? Perhaps... but that would be an itemization nightmare.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14565
06/24/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Kaeldanon
what we can convert to dodge. Agility?


Agility actually used to convert into dodge for plate tanks. If I remember correctly, it gave different values for each of the plate tanks though, not like the Str/Parry conversion we have today. Again, if I remember correctly, the Agi/Dodge conversion was removed in Cata.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
06/25/2013 02:26 AMPosted by Typan
Agility actually used to convert into dodge for plate tanks.


No, it still converts, just at a much weaker rate than it used to; now, we simply don't have access to anywhere near enough agility to make any appreciable gains.
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90 Night Elf Druid
5475
06/24/2013 04:14 PMPosted by Velmorna
Why can't Blizzard game developers just scrap devoted tanking stats (dodge and parry) entirely.


They can, but apparently they don't want to. They seem to think it's more interesting design for different specs to work differently, and that includes gearing for different stats. So instead of making plate tanks stack DPS stats to tank, they're making them stack tank stats to DPS, with things like Revenge and the crit conversion for Warriors. They're probably working on something for DKs too.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14960
I still say that while removing dodge/parry from gear is an option, an equally plausible (and require no more redesign and development) to keep dodge and parry.

The whole reason why everyone likes haste and wants them to remove dodge and parry is because dodge and parry are completely passive and boring while haste feeds into our rotation as well as the active mitigation style. And they take this as a given for why dodge and parry should be removed. But the ONLY reason that haste is fun/interesting is because they changed how it worked for us (before they added SoB haste was also completely passive). There's no reason that they couldn't add other passives that make dodge/parry rating (not necessarily actual dodges/parries but the stats themselves) interesting and impactful on our rotation and playstyle.

Now I'm sure someone will probably attack my post complaining about why I care so much about keeping such antiquated stats like dodge and parry around. But my response is why are you so hung up on removing them instead of making them better and making tanks care about them? If they remove them they'd still have to rework haste to benefit prot warrior (I know blood likes haste some but I don't know if they like it as much as tankadins do), as well as rework crit to benefit all of the tanks as well. As well as deal with the issue of suddenly making all plate tanks and all plate dps sharing the same gear. It really wouldn't be that much different in terms of development for them to simply rework dodge and parry for tanks just as they'd have to rework crit and haste, while not impacting the standard gear distribution (aside from pushing tankadins away from ret gear and back to tank gear).

In either case we still end up stacking stats that are interesting and have a fun impact on our rotation, so does it really matter if those stats are haste/crit or dodge/parry?
Edited by Pancakê on 6/25/2013 11:09 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
No, it still converts, just at a much weaker rate than it used to; now, we simply don't have access to anywhere near enough agility to make any appreciable gains.

Actually he was right. The agility-to-dodge conversion for plate users was completely removed back in 4.2 (I think).
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
The agility-to-dodge conversion for plate users was completely removed back in 4.2 (I think).


Really? Huh. Pretty sure the Prot thread on EJ still lists agility as increasing dodge by a fairly insignificant amount. Academic debate, really, as it's still a wholly undesirable stat for Paladins.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9730
Well, it was in the 4.2 patch notes. I do appear to have 0.02% dodge from...something, with no dodge rating, so who knows?

Death knights, paladins, and warriors no longer receive any bonus to their chance to dodge from Agility. Their base chance to dodge is now a fixed 5%.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Patch_4.2
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
I also have .02% dodge from somewhere, but +80 stats on chest is only .01% after taking it off. o_O

So, weird - but still largely irrelevant as, either way, agility is, for all practical purposes, worthless to us.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
4820
just convert 50 percent of dodge+parry to haste.

are you listening blizz. I fixed it for you.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
just convert 50 percent of dodge+parry to haste.

are you listening blizz. I fixed it for you.


I'm fairly sure that if they gave us a Riposte-esque buff (or any kind of actual buff) at the moment, Blood DKs/Prot Warriors/Guardian Druids, and probably some Brewmasters who are in denial about their class being similarly overpowered, would be grabbing their torches and pitchforks and storming Blizzard HQ until the change is reverted.

LET'S DO IT
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