Is it time to remove Boss Parry?

100 Human Warrior
14430
So, this is something I've been wondering about for a while. Boss mobs get a huge bonus to parry above and beyond what players or on-level mobs get. This parry mechanic serves to discourage melee from stacking in front of the boss, because the alternative is stacking a bunch of extra expertise for a major DPS loss.

And a few years ago, when standing behind a boss was a given, that mechanic worked fine. These days there are all sorts of boss mechanics that have the boss randomly turn for a second or two, then turn back. Or where you need melee stacking up in front of the boss to help soak a meteoric damage attack. In all of these situations, melee suck up a relatively high parry chance, and can miss attacks at inopportune times for large damage loss.

Given that for several tiers (expansions even) ranged superiority has been pretty much the name of the day, it seems like this mechanic that exists only to punish melee further with ever more common boss mechanics is outdated, and it's time to let it go. I still like the Expertise/Hit model that has us gear around a stat cap, but that stat cap being arbitrarily higher on some encounters for melee is silly, and is what needs to change.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7160
agreed.
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I don't even play a melee character, and I support this change.
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55 Worgen Mage
11525
Its probably more likely at this point that hit/expertise (along with parry/dodge) will just not exist in the next expansion.

GC has said that he wasn't sure if hit/expertise were really all that compellin in todays WoW environment (not exact quote, it wasn't a we will kill it line, but more a random thought).

For me, I personally don't.

Removin boss parry only delays the inevitable, eventually we'll realize that hit/expertise just don't serve a purpose anymore. You have to be able to hit cap to do effective damage in raids, its just not feasible not to hit cap, except you can hit that cap before the first tier of raidin even starts. Once you've reached that mark, there's literally 0 reason to seek out hit/expertise unless you get really wonky drops all without hit and even then reforgin fixes the "problem" right away.

Hit/expertise aren't compellin at all to me. There's nothin fun about hittin that magic number that makes it so your spells don't miss because you can hit that number with pathetic ease. It makes the whole thing so very binary. Plus hit and expertise are the only stats that do literally nothin once you hit your respective caps. Any stat over 7.5% is a wasted stat. Even the poorest stat of any damage class still has some sort of effect on damage. Hit/expertise do not.

Much better idea to just scrap them both and be done with it so I don't have to math out every single piece of gear ever to figure out how many pieces of gear I need to reforge to not be horrendously over the hit cap.

Related note, kill parry/dodge as stats as well.
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90 Troll Mage
0
At least there is no parry haste any more
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94 Draenei Shaman
4440
Removing parry is ambitious, in a game that still has glancing blows and crit suppression on bosses. It's much easier to justify removing those archaic mechanics.

And lets not forget that ferals and subtlety still rely on positional attacks! They can't attack at all when the boss flips around, or on the one or two bosses per expansion that must be attacked from the front.

But... yeah. Parry is a problem, and I hope it'll be addressed when they take another look at hit and expertise in 6.0.
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100 Human Warrior
14430
06/18/2013 10:05 PMPosted by Slant
Removing parry is ambitious, in a game that still has glancing blows and crit suppression on bosses. It's much easier to justify removing those archaic mechanics.


Both of those mechanics result in a consistent DPS deflation that has been accounted for and is balanced around. While I would like to see those go, it would result in specs needing to be tweaked to account for the sudden jump in dps, which will vary by spec (depending on how valuable crit is, how much damage comes from auto attacks, etc). Getting rid of parry? Changes absolutely nothing except not punishing melee classes when the boss turns around.

And lets not forget that ferals and subtlety still rely on positional attacks! They can't attack at all when the boss flips around, or on the one or two bosses per expansion that must be attacked from the front.


I do agree the positional attacks are just as bad, if not worse, and would like to see that eliminated as well.
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90 Undead Priest
13205
Hit/expertise caps are great for autodeclining bad apps.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
12310
Yeah, I agree. It really kills my dps when I am forced to stand in front of a boss and a bloodthirst gets parried mid-rotation.
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91 Human Paladin
6505
No, they've removed too many stats and boss "mechanics" as is(defense, crushing blows, resistances).

Removing Parry would be a buff but what's next? Boss Dodge? People would complain about needing to "waste" stats to not get dodged from behind, or front. Or Casters would complain about needing a higher hit rating than melee. It's a slippery slope. Just wait. /tinfoilhat
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100 Night Elf Druid
5895
It's interesting that this is in the damage forum... tanks have to stand in front *all the time* (on many bosses the front is pretty much defined by where we're standing) and most of us wind up spending twice as many stat points on exp because of it. (Except DKs, with their hax unparryable mechanics.)

I'd love to get those stat points back. Hit and exp are boring-but-necessary stats for everyone, but for tanks, the double exp cap is also a real burden on other stats, especially early in the expansion. DPS don't even try to go for the hard cap and plan to make it up by positioning -- and then get frustrated when they can't. And for Blood DKs, it's not worth it to invest in more exp when only some of their attacks are parryable, so they just have to put up with it when those *are* parried.

It's an unsatisfying situation for everyone, IMO. Well, everyone melee. Ranged and casters have the same hit from anywhere (IIRC) and healers have passives that give them free hit cap on the few spells where they care about it at all.
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91 Human Paladin
6505
It's interesting that this is in the damage forum... tanks have to stand in front *all the time* (on many bosses the front is pretty much defined by where we're standing) and most of us wind up spending twice as many stat points on exp because of it. (Except DKs, with their hax unparryable mechanics.)

I'd love to get those stat points back. Hit and exp are boring-but-necessary stats for everyone, but for tanks, the double exp cap is also a real burden on other stats, especially early in the expansion. DPS don't even try to go for the hard cap and plan to make it up by positioning -- and then get frustrated when they can't. And for Blood DKs, it's not worth it to invest in more exp when only some of their attacks are parryable, so they just have to put up with it when those *are* parried.

It's an unsatisfying situation for everyone, IMO. Well, everyone melee. Ranged and casters have the same hit from anywhere (IIRC) and healers have passives that give them free hit cap on the few spells where they care about it at all.


SotR is can't be parried as well IIRC but other attacks that generate Holy Power are able to be parried so it makes the cap worth getting.

It's not a wasted stat for tanks since it's a survival stat. If you don't have the resources for your AM, or your AM would miss, it helps you survive. It's a good stat till capped because of that.

Melee isn't at a disadvantage stat wise since getting both Hit and Expertise(to dodge) is equal to getting the higher hit rating that Casters need.
Edited by Gabath on 6/19/2013 8:14 AM PDT
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55 Worgen Mage
11525
No, they've removed too many stats and boss "mechanics" as is(defense, crushing blows, resistances).

Removing Parry would be a buff but what's next? Boss Dodge? People would complain about needing to "waste" stats to not get dodged from behind, or front. Or Casters would complain about needing a higher hit rating than melee. It's a slippery slope. Just wait. /tinfoilhat


What's wrong with gettin rid of all those things?
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22 Gnome Warrior
80
It comes down to how easy do you want to make the game.

- Knowing the soft/hard caps for hit and expertise can add a bit more DPS. Great for people who enjoy min/maxing. Also recall that some dual wielding classes always benefit from hit greater than 7.5%. And there have been times in the past where the pursuit of a high, hard cap was actually the best stat.

But it is not as big a trap as you make it on to be. Being a bit under or over caps cannot be noticed on a damage meter over multiple encounters given the current spread random damage.

- Knowing how to position for a fight is one of the "challenges" of boss encounters. For some complex mechanics, the tank has to get involved to make sure melee can position themselves optimally.

The game suffer if you can just walk up to any boss and wail away without any thought.

- Reforging has taken the sting out of bad luck on item drops. One of my melee characters would have almost 15% on hit rating if it wasn't for reforging because of the amount of hit gear that has dropped. Granted, it is a dual wield character so the excess hit I still have is not a total waste.

I see this as mostly an itemization issue that Blizzard needs to get better at.

- Bosses that prevent melee from fulfilling positional requirements are the biggest drag. Unless there is some technical reason, Blizzard needs to be better about adjusting dodge abilities and positional restrictions on such bosses.
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94 Draenei Shaman
4440
Nothing at all. They should have been removed.

The problem with parry (and hit for that matter) is that they are "make me not suck" stats. Missing sucks, not missing doesn't suck.

Other stats like crit, mastery, and haste are "make me better" mechanics. Rather than negating a negative, they accentuate the positive. They don't cancel misses, they make you hit harder. It feels good to get more crit; you see those big numbers on your screen.

So don't think about "removing stats" or "oversimplifying the game". Nobody's going to just remove hit and expertise and walk away satisfied. They should be replaced with something else. Something cool, a positive stat that you want to accumulate because it changes your gameplay and/or makes your character more effective in an obvious, visual way.
Edited by Slant on 6/19/2013 8:47 AM PDT
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55 Worgen Mage
11525
- Knowing the soft/hard caps for hit and expertise can add a bit more DPS. Great for people who enjoy min/maxing. Also recall that some dual wielding classes always benefit from hit greater than 7.5%. And there have been times in the past where the pursuit of a high, hard cap was actually the best stat.


The game interface tells you how much hit you need. There's no skill in lookin at your character sheet.

Aside from that, meh?

Nothing at all. They should have been removed.

The problem with parry (and hit for that matter) is that they are "make me not suck" stats. Missing sucks, not missing doesn't suck.

Other stats like crit, mastery, and haste are "make me better" mechanics. Rather than negating a negative, they accentuate the positive. They don't cancel misses, they make you hit harder. It feels good to get more crit; you see those big numbers on your screen.

So don't think about "removing stats" or "oversimplifying the game". Nobody's going to just remove hit and expertise and walk away satisfied. They should be replaced with something else. Something cool, a positive stat that you want to accumulate because it changes your gameplay and/or makes your character more effective in an obvious, visual way.


Thats an interestin way to look at it actually.
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90 Orc Hunter
8000
We dont need to keep simplifiying the game. The removal of the actual talent trees did that and blizz loss customers. Itd make a lot more sense to leave the stats alone and address individual class issues, not waste time with this.
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100 Troll Death Knight
10130
No, they've removed too many stats and boss "mechanics" as is(defense, crushing blows, resistances).

Removing Parry would be a buff but what's next? Boss Dodge? People would complain about needing to "waste" stats to not get dodged from behind, or front. Or Casters would complain about needing a higher hit rating than melee. It's a slippery slope. Just wait. /tinfoilhat


I agree. Parry is a prototypical RPG stat, and in the game where Blizzard is removing everything that makes this game an RPG, it's not necessary.

Why wouldn't a boss be able to avoid some of your damage if you're in front of it?


What's wrong with gettin rid of all those things?


Removing things that make this game a game. Every single thing that is every a minor nuisance, if only for a few seconds, is removed.

Why does it matter if we just remove this thing, or that thing, and why not these things? It matters because it's been happening for 5 years now, and the landscape of this game has shifted for the worse the whole time.
Edited by Parkwayy on 6/19/2013 11:26 AM PDT
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91 Human Paladin
6505
Nothing at all. They should have been removed.

The problem with parry (and hit for that matter) is that they are "make me not suck" stats. Missing sucks, not missing doesn't suck.

Other stats like crit, mastery, and haste are "make me better" mechanics. Rather than negating a negative, they accentuate the positive. They don't cancel misses, they make you hit harder. It feels good to get more crit; you see those big numbers on your screen.

So don't think about "removing stats" or "oversimplifying the game". Nobody's going to just remove hit and expertise and walk away satisfied. They should be replaced with something else. Something cool, a positive stat that you want to accumulate because it changes your gameplay and/or makes your character more effective in an obvious, visual way.


You could just as easily flip those quotes. They all "make me not suck" and "make me better". For some Crit, Mastery or Haste are bad stats that need to be reforged into something else. Stats vary between good and bad. Hit, and expertise for melee, is no different.

As for making a "new, cool" stat, what would it be? How would it be better than Hit/Expertise? Heck how would it not become the new Mastery?
Edited by Gabath on 6/19/2013 8:06 PM PDT
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90 Troll Mage
18190
And a few years ago, when standing behind a boss was a given, that mechanic worked fine. These days there are all sorts of boss mechanics that have the boss randomly turn for a second or two, then turn back. Or where you need melee stacking up in front of the boss to help soak a meteoric damage attack. In all of these situations, melee suck up a relatively high parry chance, and can miss attacks at inopportune times for large damage loss.


So this basically all comes down to "...but muh dps". Boss jobs have been around since the beginning of the game and certain people, or groups, must follow these mechanics in order for the raid to complete their objective. The two that come to my mind as a mage are Gruul's lair (lol, mage tank) and being the scorch !@#$% on Wizard of Oz in Karazhan.

The idea that melee are being punished by raid mechanics that require you to stand in front of the boss is quite tiring and honestly, just makes you sound like a lazy player. As one other poster pointed out, when do these "outdated" mechanics stop being inconvenient? When everything is so homogenized there is absolutely nothing different between melee, ranged, healing, and tanking?

As for making a "new, cool" stat, what would it be? How would it be better than Hit/Expertise? Heck how would it not become the new Mastery?


The only thing I can contribute to this is maybe combining hit/expertise into one stat and make everyone get 11% of that combined stat. Although I'm not a programmer, so I can't speak to how difficult that would be.
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