Shaman Healing is fine but just gets sniped

90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
This is an argument I've seen a lot of lately. Essentially the argument boils down to "it's not that Shaman healing and throughput is lacking. It's that others healers are just sniping the healing. So it's not really a problem at all." This argument does not hold water to me because of this.

Let's say hypothetically that a healing class was severely lacking in mana regen. So much so that they were going OoM very early in the fight and therefore could not get healing to the target. Obviously, this situation would require an immediate fix to improve their regen and give them the ability to get their healing to the target. Shaman regen is fine. But we are facing a similar problem. We do not have the ability to transform our mana bar into meaningful healing for our raid group. This is due to absorbs and other instant and aoe instants sniping the healing headroom. This makes our mana bar less useful to the raid's survivability compared to that of other healers. That's why you're seeing Shaman stacking Spirit.

I also wanted to requote something Tiberria quoted in a seperate thread.

http://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/2178-patch-53-interview-with-the-wow-design-team/
-Explanation from GC as to why Resto Druids were buffed in 5.3/5.4

HoTs used to be the mechanic that provided some healing “cushion” and now it really feels like absorbs have shouldered hots away. We buffed Resto druids a little in 5.3 and we have plans in 5.4 to emphasize their hots even more, especially in AE healing situations, which have become the dominant way to heal raids. We’ll see what the 5.3 changes bring to absorbs and make further changes as necessary.


GC is of the opinion that if a specs heals are getting sniped, that is a problem.
Edited by Luvbacon on 6/19/2013 1:35 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
Well not sure where the word sniped was in the quote you used or how you attribute GC's post to mean that. They nerfed holy paladin mastery by 16%. Which brought them down a bit. Other classes will follow.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
now it really feels like absorbs have shouldered hots away
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
They nerfed holy paladin mastery by 16%. Which brought them down a bit. Other classes will follow.


Here's how I read this "Sure, Blizzard has you guys back in the same sad shape you were in an expansion ago, and hasn't managed to wrangle in the absorbs and instants of other classes thus far in the expansion, but go ahead and trust them to fix it anyway"
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
5900
That's why you're seeing Shaman stacking Spirit.


Shaman were stacking spirit because MTT was overpowered.

I think some shaman are starting to realize that nobody needs the souped-up MTT anymore, because natural spirit levels from the 520+ gear are so high + the legendary meta.

Also your main argument that shaman's mana bar does not translate into as much survivability for the raid is based on us not healing as effectively above certain health percentages (where sniping occurs). However, in reality healing is not about how high someone's health is as long as they don't die, and shamans do increased healing the lower someone is as well as having Ancestral Vigor to help when someone is low as well. So, I'd say it balances out.

If you are in a situation where the raid never drops low, its probably time to drop a healer and for you to go dps.
Edited by Ðrakthar on 6/19/2013 2:16 PM PDT
Reply Quote
I wish Blizz would just change how absorbs worked, it would probably save them a lot of headache in the long run.

Also Mana Tide should just scale based on the targets Spirit rather than the caster, that would remove that annoyance.

I do agree with Shaman needing more spread heal fixes. The current tools (and even their changes on the PTR) just don't really seem to cut it. It also seems a bit silly that Blizzard has put in a small handful of glyphs to address spread healing when they haven't made many changes baseline.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
18930
Well not sure where the word sniped was in the quote you used or how you attribute GC's post to mean that. They nerfed holy paladin mastery by 16%. Which brought them down a bit. Other classes will follow.


I don't know how you can construe that quote as meaning anything but that "it feels like absorbs have shouldered HoTs away" essentially means Druid output is suffering because their HoTs are being sniped.
Edited by Tiberria on 6/19/2013 2:22 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
9210
This is an argument I've seen a lot of lately. Essentially the argument boils down to "it's not that Shaman healing and throughput is lacking. It's that others healers are just sniping the healing. So it's not really a problem at all."


It is a problem when some toolkits can get more healing done and faster without any apparent drawback such as mana efficiency, long cooldowns, or situationalness.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Monk
7430
06/19/2013 02:44 PMPosted by Rexoss
This is an argument I've seen a lot of lately. Essentially the argument boils down to "it's not that Shaman healing and throughput is lacking. It's that others healers are just sniping the healing. So it's not really a problem at all."


It is a problem when some toolkits can get more healing done and faster without any apparent drawback such as mana efficiency, long cooldowns, or situationalness.


Where is the evidence for "more healing"? For all anyone can prove, Shaman are the ones who can provide "more healing". Because healing is hard-capped by health pools, faster is all you can prove using logs.

Mana is a non-issue pretty much across the board because of stupidity like the legendary metagem and the usual stat over-inflation through an expansion that has happened since at least Wrath.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
9210
Where is the evidence for "more healing"? For all anyone can prove, Shaman are the ones who can provide "more healing". Because healing is hard-capped by health pools, faster is all you can prove using logs.


If you're assuming health is being capped quickly, isn't a slower heal simply worse?

If Shaman provide more healing, why aren't they domination heal checks like H Megaera?

If it's because health is still being capped too quickly, what's the point of a spec that can theoretically do more healing in situations that don't exist?
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
6480
GC is of the opinion that if a specs heals are getting sniped, that is a problem.


Unless the spec getting sniped is a Resto Shaman, apparently.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
8410
Oh hey, this thread again.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
12990
Oh hey, this thread again.


Nothing has changed to make them go away yet.
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Shaman
8555
06/19/2013 04:16 PMPosted by Thaimaishu
Oh hey, this thread again.


Nothing has changed to make them go away yet.


this
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
I don't know how you can construe that quote as meaning anything but that "it feels like absorbs have shouldered HoTs away" essentially means Druid output is suffering because their HoTs are being sniped


I read it as absorbs aren't letting damage occur hence not letting hots work. But I am also not looking for sinister undertones.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12320
Agreed with Rexxos, Sure Shamans may have meatier heals, but if those heals are just going into Overhealing or just not getting to the target before another class can insta heal their way to victory, Shaman healing will suffer. On paper it looks good, in practice it looks bad. No one wants to look bad so current Shamans are trying to find ways around it. Tools to let them do that should exist that just don't.

Also I'd argue that HoTs would pair wonderfully with Absorbs, because as soon as an absorb wears off it it's not instantly reapplied then there's only a small amount of damage that a HoT will pick up as soon as the next tick. Meaning HoTs would work well with Absorbs in this case. They're fast enough to snipe the small heals away from the absorb.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
Only thing I would fix about resto shamans in 10 man is add some flavor to spread out healing. Honestly it's so dull I want to face desk on my two shamans. And it's weaker than every other healer's spread out healing.

Throughput isn't a problem but they could certainly try to fix the very high overhealing tendency of some spells. How that is the question though.

And as far as heals being sniped..low damage will always have absorbs snipe more. Especially single target AOE it's more of a cushion unless you're talking about cooldowns like SS or some sort of bubble spam.
Edited by Marathel on 6/19/2013 7:12 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
06/19/2013 06:37 PMPosted by Harpoa
I don't know how you can construe that quote as meaning anything but that "it feels like absorbs have shouldered HoTs away" essentially means Druid output is suffering because their HoTs are being sniped


I read it as absorbs aren't letting damage occur hence not letting hots work. But I am also not looking for sinister undertones.


Depends on the damage level. Pally absorbs are capped at 1/3 our health. So for me thats around 160k. Even if I was capable to put that on every member of the raid, which I'm not, those shields are just a buffer for when the boss drops huge raid damage. Look at JinRokh. He drops 400k raid damage. My shields do nothing against that.

What they do protect against is a half second of someone standing in stupid, or a tank getting an extra swing in.

Real healing is still needed. Now, whether or not any healer is going to let someone sit at 50-75% long enough for a HoT to take effect is another story entirely. Again, raid bosses dropping 400k nukes on sizable portions of the raid just doesn't allow HoTs to be viable, from a sheer time standpoint. If someone is more than 10% down, a heal is probably going out, and if there is already a HoT on them... it may get sniped.

The flip side to this is those who have faster heals snipe the "real" portion of absorb healers healing, and all that is left is the absorb. My 2+ second cast time can't complete when raid damage is going out.

But how do you correct the issue without butchering someone else's heals?

I don't think it's a player mechanic issue any more. It's elevated to a game/encounter mechanic issue. They need to come up with creative ways to make each of the healers powers viable (but not essential) in each content bloc. If shaman had 2 fights where they just shined, we'd all be better off without having to nerf everyone.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
18930


Throughput isn't a problem but they could certainly try to fix the very high overhealing tendency of some spells. How that is the question though.


Throughput absolutely is a problem when the spec is 20-30% behind on an aggregate level in every raid size and difficulty. No amount of utility compensates for that large of a gap, and people that continue to claim it doesn't matter are delusional.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Shaman
11280
Oh hey, this thread again.


Fist, Make them stop. They hurt my brain :(
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]