Primordius Talisman

100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
06/15/2013 02:40 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
It's feather and promordius talisman


I might buy that if we were talking about Warriors.


For fury it's feather and gaze. They have a pretty good and accurate trinket ranking for warriors.
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90 Human Rogue
2445
I might buy that if we were talking about Warriors.


No we are talking about rets. Primordius' Talisman of Rage apparently pulls ahead from Spark of Zandalar

making our bis trinkets Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun and Primordius' Talisman of Rage
Edited by Xasapis on 6/15/2013 5:30 PM PDT
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93 Dwarf Paladin
15135
Yeah, I sincerely doubt that; where are you getting your info?
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90 Human Rogue
2445
The ret community:

www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1155054-Anaxie-s-Totally-Magnificent-ToT-Retribution-T15-BiS-amp-Theorycraft

Some numbers crunching in there.
Edited by Xasapis on 6/15/2013 5:34 PM PDT
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93 Dwarf Paladin
15135
Well, I'll concede; I honestly haven't followed Anaxie's stuff for quite some time, and this information is quite recent - posted as of yesterday, as a matter of fact.

Interesting, and somewhat disappointing.
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90 Human Rogue
2445
Defo interesting, i always passed on that trinket. Can't wait to give it a go tbh
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18710
Soooo the trinket is good according to that thread on mmo-champ?

Thank god I didn't sell it then D:

Back to testing I go!
Edited by Nytró on 6/15/2013 8:40 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10225
With a 3.3 RPPM and even a mild 20% haste, the expected chance of a second proc before the first one wears off should be, roughly, 3.3*1.2*(10/60) = 66%.

Or in other words, it should be going off about four times per minute, and four procs in a 60-second period gives a pretty high chance of stacking. If you're getting significantly less than 4 procs per minute, there may indeed be something not working correctly.

Edit: I'd bet that high levels of haste make a larger-than-usual difference for the Primordius trinket, since more procs will not only increase uptime, but also increase stacking.
Edited by Ravicana on 6/15/2013 10:07 PM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
2445
With a 3.3 RPPM and even a mild 20% haste, the expected chance of a second proc before the first one wears off should be, roughly, 3.3*1.2*(10/60) = 66%.


Where did you find the 10 in the formula above?

It should be the time since last proc in seconds, so for example lets say in my gear (36% haste) after 5 seconds of no proc i should have a

3.3 * 1.36 * 5 / 60 = 37.4% to get a proc.

I still haven't seen a log with such a good uptime. (best i've seen so far is mid-high 40s)
Edited by Xasapis on 6/15/2013 11:58 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10225
The 10 is the proc duration: getting another proc within 10 seconds of the first will get you 2 stacks. 3.3 procs per minute with 20% haste becomes 3.96 procs per minute, which is .066 procs per second, or .66 procs per ten seconds.

But going from there to a 66% chance of a proc in a ten-second window is, upon further consideration, not a great approximation. The *expected number* of procs is .66, but this is not the same as saying that the chance of getting at least one proc is 66%.
The difference between "odds of at least one proc" and "expected number of procs" is that the former does not distinguish between getting just one proc, and getting e.g. four procs in a row.

At 20% haste, the GCD is 1.25s, which means there are 8 GCDs in that 10-second window.
The chance of a proc at each GCD is 3.3*1.2*1.25/60 = .0825
And so the chance of getting no procs for eight GCDs in a row is (1-.0825)^8 = .502
Which means the odds of getting at least one proc is .498, or 49.8%.

This is still not a perfect calculation; it ignores autoattacks and assumes a perfectly gapless rotation where every ability is an attack. But due to the way RPPM works, this should be only a small source of error.

40%ish uptime sounds plausible; what I'm doing is not an uptime calculation. Nytro saying it never stacks past 2 is what seems weird to me; I'd be interested in seeing what uptime he's getting.
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93 Dwarf Paladin
15135
Nytro saying it never stacks past 2 is what seems weird to me; I'd be interested in seeing what uptime he's getting.


Lobster reported much the same months ago when he first got his. As the RPPM mechanic scales with item level (swear I read that from a Blue a long time ago, but I could be wrong), I imagine Primo may trump Spark solely at the HTF level, where that inflated RPPM is sufficient to prevent significant stack losses.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
Basically all the people in Anaxie's thread are playing with extreme levels of gear. Without good haste (and anaxie is at 38% gear haste alone) primordius isn't as good. Try it, and watch your stacks. Watch what happens during bloodlust, because that's haste, it means you'll get to 4 or 5 stacks and sit there for the whole lust.

One of the things about true BiS lists is that there sometimes is significant variations between a true extreme top end best, and what is actually better if your ilvl is 520-530, and best means literally best. If it's .7 dps higher, that's what puts it on the list. That's why there's a tanking ring on the list.

Spark is also really annoying.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10225
The proc rate varying by ilvl is only for trinkets like Unerring Vision of Lei Shen that don't already have a proc of scaling strength, although sadly most of the blue posts about it seem to have been lost when the 5.2 PTR forums went away.

The 49.8% chance above doesn't vary much even with drastically higher amounts of haste (at 50% haste, it's a 56% chance), or wildly varying frequencies of proccing attacks (even with a completely fictional .1s GCD, it drops only to 48.5%), nor if the GCD doesn't line up perfectly with the end of the proc and so you only count the first 9s of the proc for stacking purposes (45.3% chance of a refresh, given the same 20% haste but using only the first 7 GCDs). So I'm reasonably confident that realistic conditions should not differ dramatically from the simplified calculation above.

About half of the one-stacks should turn into two stacks, and about half of those should proceed to three-stacks, and so on; so it would feel rare for the proc to stack very high rather than falling off at one or two, but should not be unheard of.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
I'm not talking about artificial scaling because of ilvl of the trinket, but because of gear level. Anaxie has nearly double the haste that you do, and 10% more than I do, they're 20 ilvl above me with ideal gear selection, not sitting on 9%+ hit rating and bad crit pieces.

My warrior, who has under 15% haste almost never even gets up to a two stack. Because it's a RPPM trinket, that haste makes a massive difference in how good it is.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10225
My apologies; I composed the post in response to Grognard, and I guess yours went up while I was still writing. Haste certainly will play a role in both uptime and stacking. You could be right that it passes up other trinkets only at higher gear levels.
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93 Dwarf Paladin
15135
You could be right that it passes up other trinkets only at higher gear levels.


Which is basically what I said, though with a different - and, apparently, flawed - reasoning. If this sort of thing is only just coming to light, it would seem that Primo's value hinges entirely on being head-to-toe heroic geared where you would have enough haste to fuel the stacks on it.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
Even relatively small gear differences can make serious changes in the value of those trinkets, using the 502 version on my paladin and my warrior, there's a gear gap but the real difference is my haste levels on the two toons. I can autoattack a dummy on my paladin and it will get to 2 stacks eventually. My warrior has to have good luck just to maintain 1 stack.

Or compare Grog's toon (on undermine) with Nytro. Nytro has a fairly significant gear advantage, but his haste really pales compared to Grog's. He actually has more than me, and my ilvl is even higher still. I'm not sure if Anaxie is just doing hard math, or if simcraft is properly turning out results for the RPPM trinkets (shaman threads lead me to believe it may be, or at least the enhance module may be), but I'd imagine that simming our three toons would produce somewhat different results in the value of spark vs primordius. It looks like I only have to do a little juggling on my toon to make it possible to do direct comparisons to see what kind of results it gives.

Sims going now, using me, Grog, and Nytro (I think these three toons are really good testing points if simcraft is modeling correctly, since Grog and I have very similar haste levels and 4t15, our primary difference is going to be AP, and Nytro and I have similar gear levels but significantly different haste levels) since we all have spark and none of us have reforged the haste on it away it means I don't have to do any math to maintain caps, and changed my talents to match. I'll change Grog's spark to the same itemid as mine and Nytro's, and use TF Primo, so that all six sim runs are comparing the same ilvl trinkets on each toon. 50k iterations, patch, elite, for consistency.

Now that it occurs to me, I'm actually going to do four sims on Grog, one set of 2/2 TF Spark vs 2/2 TF Primo, and one set of 2/2 RF Spark vs 2/2 RF Primo to see if the dps spread is similar on the differing ilvls.

Grog on both sets were pretty consistent, and on all three toons Primordius was a very minor gain. On a whim I simmed a comparison using Anaxie, and 543 Spark did also sim slightly lower (1k@226k) than 543 Primordius. When they're that close, the one with the more favorable mechanics tends to be the one you want, and Primordius is just more reliable. It always procs high on pull, and always procs high during bloodlust.

Purely conjecture but with the way that it's simming consistently across various gear and haste levels, there could have been a problem with previous versions of either simcraft's ret model or the trinket modeling in the base program and we've just been basing our opinions on that, similar to back in LK when there was a problem with the sim's valuation of haste and it just wasn't caught for a long time.
Edited by Cayse on 6/16/2013 2:20 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Paladin
16705
How does the normal thunderforged 0/2 upgraded version compare to the DMF trinket? That's my only alternative at the moment.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
476/484 Xuen? I don't think they could possibly be anywhere close with that kind of ilvl spread.
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100 Draenei Paladin
16705
06/16/2013 02:23 PMPosted by Cayse
476/484 Xuen? I don't think they could possibly be anywhere close with that kind of ilvl spread.

I think I went 2/2 with Xuen but it's been a while ..
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