Dodge on Leather like Crit on Plate Tank Gear

90 Pandaren Monk
11255
I am not understanding why for two tiers now dodge rating has made it onto Brewmaster tier gear. It looks like it is slated to make a return for Tier 16.

Blizzard has made a great effort to make ordinary tanking stats less attractive than DPS stats for the leather wearing tanks, with great success in my opinion. They did so for all the right reasons, but chiefly in my mind is that it was downright confusing as a former druid tank to others and even myself sometimes which piece of gear I should be taking back when we were still going for things like tanking rings, trinkets and cloaks.

I see the addition of tanking stats onto leather gear in MoP to be a step backwards. Yes, of course, I want to be optimal too trust me. However, even at this late stage in the expansion, I still get many questions from guild members making a new Monk, from guild leadership that I raid with, and (as one of extremely few well geared and progressed Brewmasters on my server) from random people all the time. Dodge on our gear is just one thing I cannot seem to explain to them because it makes no sense to me. I can draw no other comparison to it than to say it is as stupid as putting DPS stats on plate tank gear and say that Blizzard just is making a mistake.

While I am aware that you could take a plate wearing tank and see some benefit to survivability from some DPS stats, lets say a Paladin with some haste for example. Wouldn't it be really confusing to the community if you started putting haste on their Tier gear? They are free to look to Ret gear for this stat, and leather wearers are free to look to gems and enchants if they want dodge rating.

Dodge rating has no place on leather tanking gear, it makes the gear confusing to those who may not yet understand the spec's mechanics, and less appealing to those who do.

P.S. Stamina socket bonuses kinda stink too.
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90 Human Mage
18810
no clue why they put tanking stat on leather tanking gear may be they felt u were doing to much damge so its a small way to lower it
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90 Pandaren Monk
11255
Well, I can understand wanting to adjust all tank damage to be more uniform. However, if that is the goal, then they need to do it through abilities and mechanics, not gear.

Its not just that the stat is sub-optimal, it is just counterintuitive to see it on one gear set, and doesn't make any sense.

It is unwanted, and unwarranted.
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53 Tauren Druid
8150
Has dodge/parry always been on tanking leather?
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90 Night Elf Druid
9550
Time for a history lesson:

The short answer, yes, leather always has had tank stats on it. The problem is that some of these items Spry Boots just do not exist anymore. Others, such as the Stormshroud Set are crafted leather items or raid items that no one sees anymore since the content is just not done.

In BC, there was a whole set who existed just to allow bears to tank. Heavy Clefthoof armor was my first true tanking set and it had no place outside of a feral druid tank.

All the extra items though made Blizzard decide to remove all tank leather items EXCEPT off of tier gear to cut back on loot table bloat. Even that statement is NOT accurate until they split off feral dps and tank. Bears were given some incentive (or more like no major downside) to take plate tank trinkets, rings, and necklaces. But even that dropped off for Cata.

So yeah, thinking this is a new situation is only partially accurate. The truth is that we are going back to a time when leather tanks could get tank gear.

Edit:
And, it is stats that increase your defensive ability, if you do not want defensive stats as a tank, well, you might want to think about what a tank is to you.
Edited by Tenshirou on 6/17/2013 6:14 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
11255
I am well aware of previous tanking leather items with traditional tanking stats.... as I stated, I used to be a druid tank. I wore heavy clefthoof for many, many months, even over tier 4 gear. But we gradually shifted away from those stats... it actually had defense rating on it until that stat was done away with, and then dodge replaced it.

As for dodge increasing my defensive ability, yes it does, but very poorly in comparison to haste, crit or mastery, because Monks, like Druids, were (re)designed to get better use from those stats to unify their gear selection to be the same as all other leather wearing specs so there is no confusion or competition for gear that doesn't make sense for us.

Crit, haste and mastery ARE the defensive stats of a Monk and Druid. We DO want defensive stats, but the right ones. If we want dodge for any reason, we are free to gem it just as a Paladin tank is free to gem haste if they wish to, but it should not be on our gear by default. It is backtracking, and makes me question if the right hand is talking to the left at Blizzard when it comes to making the gear and designing the spec. If it is completely intentional, them I am just curious what that intention really is, as it does not make sense.
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90 Night Elf Monk
12985
And, it is stats that increase your defensive ability, if you do not want defensive stats as a tank, well, you might want to think about what a tank is to you.


except that we get more defensive ability from haste, agility, mastery, and crit that dodge is one of our worst tanking stats possible (worse than parry, actually). The dodge on any tier gear I get is almost always reforged.
Edited by Sichel on 6/17/2013 11:20 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
17265
06/17/2013 05:59 PMPosted by Drutilly
Has dodge/parry always been on tanking leather?


Tank leather was phased out in LK. Druids have never been able to parry.
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17 Undead Warlock
5405
And, it is stats that increase your defensive ability, if you do not want defensive stats as a tank, well, you might want to think about what a tank is to you.

Monk and Druid tanks get better defense from main stats than anything else. Dodge on Monk tanking gear is pointless and redundant. They already dodge enough without extra dodge and dodge more if they stack offensive stats like crit than by stacking dodge.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
You do realize they are straight copies of the T15 items with new bonuses right?
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90 Night Elf Monk
12985
You do realize they are straight copies of the T15 items with new bonuses right?


so why did T15 and T14 have dodge on them?
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90 Orc Warrior
14530
so why did T15 and T14 have dodge on them?

Because tier sets aren't intended to be perfect? If your gear has bad stats on it, you use an off piece in that slot. Sometimes you will sacrifice the 4pc, etc.

Why does my tier gear have haste, every slot should be Crit / Mastery. It isn't going to happen.
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90 Troll Monk
14425
I might be missing something, but I don't see any Dodge or Parry on Brewmaster T15 or T16.

Or maybe I'm blind.

Edit: I am indeed blind. You were referring to the socket bonuses.
Edited by Beifong on 6/18/2013 1:56 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Monk
12985
Because tier sets aren't intended to be perfect? If your gear has bad stats on it, you use an off piece in that slot. Sometimes you will sacrifice the 4pc, etc.

Why does my tier gear have haste, every slot should be Crit / Mastery. It isn't going to happen.


I'm not asking for perfectly itemized tier, but this is like putting spirit on a dps caster piece. ok sure it's converted to hit for some of them but it's not really worth it. Just like they avoid spirit-anything, so do monks avoid dodge-anything.
Edited by Sichel on 6/18/2013 2:26 AM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
14530
I'm not asking for perfectly itemized tier, but this is like putting spirit on a dps caster piece. ok sure it's converted to hit for some of them but it's not really worth it. Just like they avoid spirit-anything, so do monks avoid dodge-anything.

Not really. Spirit for a mage will give them ZERO gain.
Dodge for a monk gives them SOME gain, it's not what they want, but it isn't useless.

This isn't a monk specific problem. Every class has stats on their tier that they don't want.
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90 Night Elf Monk
12985
Dodge for a monk gives them SOME gain, it's not what they want, but it isn't useless.


except that the scaling from dodge makes the gain from dodge nearly worthless. Also I was specifically referring to hybrid casters such as boomkins and Shadow priests (which do have SOME gain from spirit, but isn't useless to them) Spirit on their gear makes tons of sense, right?
Edited by Sichel on 6/18/2013 2:46 AM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
14530
Spirit is 1:1 with hit, it would be fine. As I said, it doesn't matter how bad dodge is for you, dodge is a tank stat. It will be on tank gear. Reforge out of it, or don't use the slot.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11255
I might be missing something, but I don't see any Dodge or Parry on Brewmaster T15 or T16.

Or maybe I'm blind.

Edit: I am indeed blind. You were referring to the socket bonuses.


Actually it was directly on the T14 here http://www.wowhead.com/item=85384

Also as pointed out, I did not realize the stats on T16 were a direct copy of the stats on T15. Being that things are "subject to change", I feel a bit better. My questions and concerns remain though.
Edited by Snarshk on 6/18/2013 9:17 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Monk
5050
I also wonder what impetus they had to put dodge as a socket bonus on several items, but I do consider that if the socket bonus were, say, crit/mastery/haste whereas the bonuses for the WW set were still agility, it would still be unclear which pieces are better for you as BM aside from the 2p/4p tier bonuses.

This would also present another problem wherein the BM tier would become attractive to WW monks, considering that additional secondary stats would provide for more gain through reforging for rune, although this isn't a very strong argument because agility is just as good and the agility vs secondary stats on socket bonuses are equivalent.

As much as I feel like I wish the socket bonuses weren't so unattractive, I do have to admit deep down I enjoy trying to figure out which of my 5 tier slots will be WW tier instead. I'm probably just crazy though.

edit: One final thought that I had is what makes the bonuses so strange is the fact that they have shown a clear direction with hybrids (aside from plate tanks) that they want you to feel perfectly able to tank/dps or heal/dps with the same set of gear, aside from obvious stuff like trinkets. DPS secondary stats are made totally useful for bears/BM monks and spirit converts to hit for every caster/healer hybrid. I think the dodge on tier gear is literally the only current loot that does not follow this convention and that's what makes it stick out like a sore thumb.
Edited by Chilidog on 6/18/2013 9:12 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
11255
Spirit is 1:1 with hit, it would be fine. As I said, it doesn't matter how bad dodge is for you, dodge is a tank stat. It will be on tank gear. Reforge out of it, or don't use the slot.


Then in all fairness, I would like to see crit and haste on your gear as a Prot Warrior, all tanks do damage too after all. It wouldn't be completely wasted if you had some crit and haste. (/obvious sarcasm)

It should be gotten out of your head that dodge is a "Tank" stat. Not all tanks are created equal. Monks can dodge, for sure, but it is not one of our tanking stats. Our dodge comes from crit and agility, and should exclusively do so. I am just trying to get to the bottom of why it is making its way onto our gear.

It is not like a prot warrior that doesn't favor dodge because it is less optimal, dodge is still one of your three tanking stats. Our three tanking stats are crit, mastery and haste. Why should we have to deal with 5 stats, 7 if you consider hit and expertise, as tanks? How convoluted would a class's gear be if they were designed to manage 7 stats in a priority? It would be about as convoluted as druid tank gearing was 2 & 3 expansions ago when the leather wearing tanks were all over the board in what they were wearing to tank in.

Leather tanking gear was fixed years ago, and leather wearing tank reliance on traditional tanking stats was finally completely eliminated in MoP. Druids and Monks were given three stats to work with and prioritize just like plate tanks. Dodge (and parry) has no place on our gear, bottom line.
Edited by Snarshk on 6/18/2013 9:33 AM PDT
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