Guild drama week...advise? suggestions?

I am looking for advice or suggestions on how other guild/raid leaders would handle situations like this or even just an ear and a spot I can vent some frustrations!
So, first off: We had a terrible raid leader who kept bringing someone into the raids I usually had a problem with. This person who brought in I would let go because he is a friend of my dad's and has been for about 16-17 years....a friend of mine transfers from his server. They start raiding with us....we are still in MSV. Now I had a guild meeting and told my guild raiders that they need to help each other get gear and be better at their dps so we can down elegon (where we have been stuck on...).
All of a sudden, I get a message from this raid leader telling me they want me (Keep in mind I am the guild leader and I put the team together) off the raid team and that I am getting distracted in raids and attacking my heals. Now, I have been told by ALL my raiders and strangers that I run with that I am a good healer. I also only got distracted once in the past couple of months but that was understandable because my husband who was raiding with us had a problem with his mouse stop working right, I tried to tell them not to pull and I had to afk a second, but noone listened....well I stopped and ran to help my husband so he could continue the raid with us.
Now, after my guild meeting about us helping each other....I get told by my cogm that word got to this other person who we told couldnt go on the raids anymore (Hes a non guildee and from another server anyways) that I was telling my guild members they had to help ME get gear, which was totally not true. Over this past week has been nothing but hell (except the fact after kicking my old raid leader from the guild for arguing and getting disrespectful with me) we ended up downing elegon and hope to have the same success only further this upcoming raid reset. (Oh before you say anything....the guild was created in March of this year, so I understand raid wise we are behind in regards to where most guilds are, but we want to start from MSV and work the way up)
Well, I started having a couple officers trying to tell ME how things were GOING to be run in my guild. Lets just say they are not even in my guild before. and now , I have one officer who has since been demoted because I told a guild member who was new that if he needed a flask or gems transmuted that I handled the alchemy stuff within the guild (I'm the guild flask master) so I would be glad to do them for him for free...and I got yelled at by an officer for making it all about me...so, how is me offering my profession to help a guild member out making it about me? But then I find out this guild member is listening to the others and has it stuck in his head that I am the failure for the raids...when I am still there and the old raid leader has been removed and we are further then we ever were with him? This old raid leader wouldn't even take the time not even 2 minutes to explain a general fight....it was /readycheck pull. type deal, and I am sorry...but I feel a good raid leader (especially in a guild built on learning raids and progressing through them without the elitist attitudes) should at least explain the fight so the guild members/raiders know the fight. So. now this guild member (prior officer) keeps bringing up the fact I am making it about me...everything I do is for me he says...
I will tell you guys what I have done for the guild
1. Spent 10k of my own personal gold to get the guild bank its first 6 tabs upon creation
2. Deposited 15k of my personal gold after tabs were created to start the bank off with funds
3. Paid 55 bucks to faction change/realm transfer a character that i never wanted on my ally server or as alliance to begin with because we needed a resto druid for the raids
4. Macros set up so new members know what officers do for them (Like specific jobs....My guild blacksmith, my guild counselor, raid leaders...etc.)
5. I have recruited and hand chosen most of the members because my guild recruiter is having pc problems
6. Paid close to 30k of my own funds to help gear guild members for raids

Not once have I asked for anything in return. I even pay the vent server fees once a year by myself because the other members refuse to donate even a dollar to our 50 slot vent...and I don't complain about what I do at all

Things seem to be getting out of control and I need to bring it back under control and fast. Not sure what to do when I have 1 guild member listening to 2 people who have caused me problems in the past and are causing them once again for me...and now this person has tried to basically tell me and my other officers they are right without listening to what we are saying
I am asking if anyone here has ever delt with a similar issue? If so, how did you handle it? If not, how would you handle it if this arises again? Gkick or just demote again? Advise please
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Sorry it was so long, if you need any additional information please ask me. I also forgot to mention, this one person who wasnt even in the guild managed to turn 3 guildees against me who are all working to basically either try to get my guild taken from me and getting my members to go against me. Though most of my members and officers are telling them to shut up, its still wreaking havoc....
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90 Blood Elf Mage
7605
Exercise your kick button. Sure wouldnt be good if I had one. I'd hold a meeting with my officers and lay down the law, dont like it? Leave. Then I'd pull in the troublemakers and confront them and give the same lecture. Hear their sides but dont get lost in translation. Whatever you do, do something, and fast, because it sounds like your guild is getting cancer, it needs to undergo surgery immediately to remove that bads before all is lost.

Good luck :D
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90 Draenei Death Knight
13815
This is way too much drama to get into point-by-point, but it all sounds pretty dysfunctional and you probably need to reboot your raid group.

You also need to address how you ended up with all these people you had pretty severe conflicts with. How did these people become officers and raid leaders in the first place? You should take a few steps back and reflect on how you got to this point. Going forward, how will you vet potential officers, raider leaders, and raid members?
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90 Human Warrior
16680
A handful of things struck me here that probably need some serious thought give to them:

and I got yelled at by an officer for making it all about me


I will tell you guys what I have done for the guild
1. Spent 10k of my own personal gold to get the guild bank its first 6 tabs upon creation
2. Deposited 15k of my personal gold after tabs were created to start the bank off with funds
3. Paid 55 bucks to faction change/realm transfer a character that i never wanted on my ally server or as alliance to begin with because we needed a resto druid for the raids
4. Macros set up so new members know what officers do for them (Like specific jobs....My guild blacksmith, my guild counselor, raid leaders...etc.)
5. I have recruited and hand chosen most of the members because my guild recruiter is having pc problems
6. Paid close to 30k of my own funds to help gear guild members for raids


There is also numerous instances of 'me' in the post. Now, this is not to say they are right. But sometimes perception is reality. I recognize the reason for the post and amount of self-referencing. You are explaining your situation and also feel a bit defensive. But this comes out in /gchat or /o the same way...I'm just pointing out that communication is a 2-way street. No matter what you intend to say you have to recognize that the receiver may interpret the message differently.

So while the whole issue may be a fabrication on the part of the people misunderstanding your message its something you should consider. I would not address it specifically but perhaps be more aware of the words you use or the way you handle these situations when others attack.

Next, as for demoting the officer who called you out, there are a few points to consider - 1 how did he do it? If it was publicly and he caused publicly caused drama I could see the demotion. But if he kept it in o-chat or private chat and you demoted him basically for speaking his mind - that's wrong and would be another nail in the coffin who think the guild is all about you. If officers can't have their own thoughts or bring up matters that they feel are in the best interest of the guild w/out a demotion then you shouldn't even have officers. They way they bring it is important.

For the problem itself - I think its time to clean house. It sounds like there are just major splits in your guild that are not healthy. Mend the fences or shove them off.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11010
Seems to me everyone needs to calm down and respect one another a bit more.

Don't ramble on in guild chat and don't defend yourself because you'll just add more fuel to this drama. Don't take it personally either. I see you mentioned you made contributions to the guild but not what contributions others made. You're running a casual guild and you'll end up with people with a broad range of strengths and weaknesses in this game. Since it's a new guild it will be some time until the member base stabilizes and the atmosphere is really establshed. Your role as the GM is to lead it through the turmoil. Be firm in your principles and stand by what you wanted to accomplish when you created the guild in the first place.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9765
In my opinion your too soft if your the GM and your unhappy and people in your guild are getting unhappy u jus need to remember your this important detail your the BOSS so act like one. if you give them a detail to do and they refuse to do so how would your boss at your job react you would get fired. you get the option to kick so don't be afraid to use it. My advice is before you go bringing in elitist jerks into your guild is to work with the people you are used to. you don't need a huge guild to raid and usually the bigger guilds have more drama your better off with a guild of no bigger than 25 people hence 25 man raid. every big guild ive know ends up splitting and they lose half of their people. Mostly cause people get sand in their !@#$%^s and think everything should be their way. But yea don't be hard on your self and just tuffen up a bit like I said u made that guild no one else so don't be afraid to put that foot down and use that kick button. LIKE A BOSS
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Seems to me everyone needs to calm down and respect one another a bit more.

Don't ramble on in guild chat and don't defend yourself because you'll just add more fuel to this drama. Don't take it personally either. I see you mentioned you made contributions to the guild but not what contributions others made. You're running a casual guild and you'll end up with people with a broad range of strengths and weaknesses in this game. Since it's a new guild it will be some time until the member base stabilizes and the atmosphere is really establshed. Your role as the GM is to lead it through the turmoil. Be firm in your principles and stand by what you wanted to accomplish when you created the guild in the first place.


To be honest with you, Only one other person has made serious contributions in my guild. Thats my husband. Between me and him we have done everything for the guild. So there wasnt really anything to mention in regards of what other people have done, because they haven't done anything and then act like its a crime when I even ask them for small donations to help with guild repairs for all the raiders and guild members.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11010
So what's your husband saying about all of this?
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He's really upset and saying something needs to be done (He's not a cogm, but he is an officer that is in charge of helping people up their dps and be raid ready as the toon advisor) we have already removed up to 5 officers 2 of which are still in the guild just not as an officer the others left right aftere they got demoted. My husband said they are lucky hes not the guild leader and he has asked me if I wanted to move the guild to another server. But me and the current COGMS are wanting to stay here on our server....we already moved once and for me to move would cost over 200 dollars because of all the toons I woiuld move. I am just not sure what to do exactly....One of my members (Former officer) is banking off the fact that me, my raid assistant, and my cogms have told him and members before
"If you don't like how the guild is run, then get out of it..that simple"

and he is saying that is how I am making it all about me...of course, I don't know any guild leader who hasn't said that, or who wouldn't say that when people start trying to her how she NEEDS to run the guild instead of just making suggestions. That's what my husband is more upset about.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11010
So stand your ground then and don't let them manipulate you. A guild is not a democracy and regardless if you're right or wrong in your decisions, it seems to me like the troublemakers in your guild don't respect you at all because you're a woman. If they want to run the guild in a manner you don't then they are free to go create their own guild. I seem to recall from your previous posts that a portion of the leadership is related to you. Perhaps it would be a good idea to get rid of most of the officers and just make the guild a friends and family one with less complexity and thus less drama.
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90 Draenei Priest
17915
06/18/2013 02:37 AMPosted by Berrykins
So, first off: We had a terrible raid leader who kept bringing someone into the raids I usually had a problem with.

When you appoint someone a raid leader, it says two things about you: 1 - that you trust this person to make decisions regarding your raid team and 2 - you put them in charge of all aspects of the raid team. Now, if either one of those are no longer true, then it's time to find yourself a new raid leader OR it's time to step back and let him run the raid. You didn't really expand upon this point so I don't have much more to add to this.

06/18/2013 02:37 AMPosted by Berrykins
All of a sudden, I get a message from this raid leader telling me they want me (Keep in mind I am the guild leader and I put the team together) off the raid team

Being the guild leader is irrelevant when you're talking about a raid team. Being a guild leader doesn't automatically mean you're a competent raider, and it never guarantees you a raid spot. Not every guild leader is a good raider. This goes back to point number one. If you assigned your raid team a leader, then that person has the right to make decisions regarding the raid team, and everyone should be treated and evaluated fairly, including you.
06/18/2013 02:37 AMPosted by Berrykins
I also only got distracted once in the past couple of months

Even the best raiders get distracted from time to time. Hell, I wiped my raid last night and no one's rushing to replace me. So think about that for a moment. It's highly doubtful that your raid spot is on the line because you "got distracted."

Now, I have been told by ALL my raiders and strangers that I run with that I am a good healer.

Not to sound petty, but you're wearing a damage trinket. While I'm sure you have a good reason for this, to someone like me, that speaks to how well you actually know your class and how well you pay attention to the items you have equipped. That's not such a huge leap to make. And I don't believe you are at the gear or progression levels where healers can wear damage trinkets in order to push dps on difficult encounters.

06/18/2013 02:37 AMPosted by Berrykins
Well, I started having a couple officers trying to tell ME how things were GOING to be run in my guild.

I can go either way with this one. You choose officers to take on responsibility, and if they're trying to make changes that will benefit the guild, kicking them for doing what you promoted them to do seems foolish. On the other hand, you have a certain vision and set of goals for your guild, and if your officers are trying to work around that for their own benefit, then it's time to get new officers. A little more information here would be helpful.

06/18/2013 02:37 AMPosted by Berrykins
I feel a good raid leader (especially in a guild built on learning raids and progressing through them without the elitist attitudes) should at least explain the fight so the guild members/raiders know the fight.


Sure. But your raiders should be doing their own research if you expect fights to go well. One single person should never be in charge of telling 9 or 24 other people what to do and what their roles are. If your raiders aren't watching videos, reading strats, and at the very least, doing LFR to experience the fights, get new raiders. There's nothing wrong with a raid leader expecting people to do their own homework. There is, however, something wrong with a GM who expects their raid leader to do all the research for the raid team,

I will tell you guys what I have done for the guild

Listing how much fake money you've spent doesn't tell me jack about what you've done, as a guild leader, for your guild. What it does tell me is that you seem to value virtual gold over people. What have you done to help your members? What have you done to help your raid team? How close are you to your members? Can they talk to you when they have problems, or do they tend to avoid you? I can't tell you what you should DO to help your guild, but I can tell you that attaching some sort of value to virtual money isn't helpful.

-ctd-
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90 Draenei Priest
17915
06/18/2013 02:44 AMPosted by Berrykins
I also forgot to mention, this one person who wasnt even in the guild managed to turn 3 guildees against me who are all working to basically either try to get my guild taken from me and getting my members to go against me.

I'm sorry, but this just sounds like high school drama. Restructure your guild with adults, stop promoting untrustworthy people to leadership positions, and get off your throne. Being a guild leader is a HUGE responsibility; you have people looking to you for guidance, so start leading them, or step down and let someone else do it.

06/18/2013 11:14 AMPosted by Berrykins
"If you don't like how the guild is run, then get out of it..that simple"

Yes, it is that simple. However, if enough people leave, then what would that tell you? And, if you have people coming to you telling you they don't like what's going on, why not stop and listen for a moment? Usually when one person comes forward, there are ten more who don't. Listen to what your members are saying before you brush them off with a scripted response.
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Hespler, since my prior posts we have added a lot more officers in our growing based on the needs of the guild, only 3 of my officers are related to me now out of the 9 officers I have) so now most of my officers being related to me is not true anymore :P Just a side note. That number is after removing 5 officers. But I do see what you are saying. I have totally reconstructed my officers and there specific positions in the guild as well as what they can and can't do. I really do not have many family or real life friends who play wow and tend to like running the bigger guilds. However, sometimes it does get to a point where I am not totally sure what to do...like in this case.
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Listing how much fake money you've spent doesn't tell me jack about what you've done, as a guild leader, for your guild. What it does tell me is that you seem to value virtual gold over people. What have you done to help your members? What have you done to help your raid team? How close are you to your members? Can they talk to you when they have problems, or do they tend to avoid you? I can't tell you what you should DO to help your guild, but I can tell you that attaching some sort of value to virtual money isn't helpful.


When a raider's dps was low, Me and my officers initiated her and helped her up her dps, we help them learn, offer a wide range of professions so they don't have to buy enchants and offer that kind of thing for free within the guild ranks or guild alliances. as for my damage trinket...I got it because of the haste, not the equip bonus and it was a lot more haste on that one then what I had prior. I needed more haste because I did not have enough. so when that was dropped for me I went ahead and equipped because haste is something that is good for a resto druid. My guild members can and do talk to me when they have problems, and we have a guild counselor who they trust and can speak with just in case I am not online or if they see me in a raid (LFR or a heroic) they go to him and then he tells me when I am done with what I am doing and between me and him we work to find a solution.
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06/18/2013 11:14 AMPosted by Berrykins
"If you don't like how the guild is run, then get out of it..that simple"

Yes, it is that simple. However, if enough people leave, then what would that tell you? And, if you have people coming to you telling you they don't like what's going on, why not stop and listen for a moment? Usually when one person comes forward, there are ten more who don't. Listen to what your members are saying before you brush them off with a scripted response. [/quote]

All in all, I have only had 3 officers leave and 2 members in the past days, but you always see members come and go, people leaving my guild just tells me I need to rebuild it and restructure I have done it before and would have no problems doing it again :P I also do listen to my members, but of course it is when they want to get belligerent and disrespect that. There is a difference between making suggestions and telling me how it is SUPPOSSED to be run because "Well, other guilds I was in did it this way" That's fine, but this is not that other guild, it is a different guild...Each guild is still run differently, I have been in guilds where I liked the members, just now how it was run so I left. I have also been in guilds where I liked how it was run, just not the members so again I would leave. Different guild, different rules, and it appears a lot of people have not got the concept of
I do take all suggestions into consideration, but I am also honest if someone suggests something that i dont like I just tell them "I really do not like this idea, but maybe we can revisit it in the future" some people would get so angry because I didn't do it, forgetting that a suggestion is only advice and does not have to be taken.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
My guild members can and do talk to me when they have problems, and we have a guild counselor who they trust and can speak with just in case I am not online or if they see me in a raid (LFR or a heroic) they go to him and then he tells me when I am done with what I am doing and between me and him we work to find a solution.


What is this, summer camp? Start treating your guild members as adults and maybe they'll start acting like adults.

This is going to be blunt, so get ready.

- Do not let them bring their !@#$ing problems to your guild. It's a damned video game. If they have problems, they deal with that %^-* outside of the game or they find another guild. Any other attitude is just inviting the kinds of problems you're experiencing. I guarantee you the guild members you have that are not causing drama have problems as well, they just don't feel the need to bring that !@#$ in game.

- If your Raid Leader wants you off the team, get the %^-* off the team. Don't hamstring his authority or you'll have a power struggle on your hands and you will lose because raid teams are always closer than the guild. Remove yourself from the raid group and work with the RL to fix whatever the issue is. And it isn't always about performance. Just because you're the GM doesn't mean you can't be the one ruining the morale and mental well being of the raid as a whole.

- Your husbands mouse died because he didn't check it before the raid. Prevent that problem.

- Stop tolerating drama. This does not mean be Queen !@#$%, but it does mean setting expectations and enforcing them.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
Berrykins I am coming into this a bit late and I apologize if what I am about to say has already been said.

About this terrible raid leader.. to make some one a raid leader means you trust them enough to run your raids.. You can not give some one that job and then try to micro manage everything they do. So when you chose a new raid leader make sure he agrees with you on the type of guild your running, then let him manage and run the raids.. that means who does and does not come to your raids.

If someone comes to you and questions you on how good or not so good your healing .. do not get defensive and say I do not know what your talking about others have always told me I am good healer.. Listen to what they have to say, Listen to what their problem is.. Maybe you are doing something that is making their job harder.. Maybe they need to know more about what being a healer is.. go to your logs.. look at your healing per second. Look at your activity.. Your not perfect either.. Use the logs and recount to show to this person what you are doing. Maybe you find out you do have a problem and can fix it , but maybe you show him your doing just fine... and by doing this you showed him you cared enough about his opinion to listen even if he was not correct in the long run

As a guild leader you have to hold yourself to a high accountability . I know guild leaders who will excuse themselves from the raid because they are not the best player for the team.

As to your contributions, yes you contributed a lot of gold and time to the guild, but you did not level this guild by yourself and you can not raid by yourself. So yes give yourself some credit.. but also give others the credit they are due..

If others perceive this is all about you.. ( even when it is not) that is their perception and you can not argue with them about that.. If I say I am cold who are you to say I am not?
Now the tricky thing is how do you go about changing their misconstrued perception of you?

Stop using the Word I and Me so much.. for starters and start using We ...
Hold a guild meeting and let everyone talk and listen to what is being said, ask for how they the guild members think you can solve this misunderstanding.. ( you need to stay silent) the guild memebers need to talk and you just need to listen. At the end thank everyone for their opinions and that you have a lot to think about . Do not try to solve every issue right away or feel that every issue needs a solution. Group with those you trust most after you have a chance to digest what was said and pow wow about a plan of action.

Your a new guild and everyone is going to have to learn to work with each other, they are going to have to understand until they have some more time under their belt raiding is not going to go smoothly, their are going to bumps and bruises .. but that is okay, they will survive and the guild will survive.

To those that are just not right for the guild who are always trying to sabotage you.. you need to remove the cancer before it spreads

Good luck
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90 Draenei Priest
17915
06/18/2013 01:28 PMPosted by Berrykins
but you always see members come and go,


No, you don't. If your guild has such a high turnover, then something's wrong. Very wrong.
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