Ret T16 change to 4peice

100 Human Paladin
16855
Adding 50% to a bad set bonus still makes it bad.

The proc will be used still as just a "filler" if nothing is up, which in all honesty give the haste given this teir and how we will have even more next tier... that's only once in a blue moon.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20940
Just make it DS is now free and off GCD

idk what theyre doing. If they want us to have better cleave buff HotR or SoT not a crappy finisher that will throw off normal single target rotation
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100 Human Paladin
16855
^ gimme that

heck were missing like... double TV damage.... for a awful DS proc...
Edited by Ritalynn on 6/19/2013 7:22 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Hunter
8420
Still early in the PTR. It will be up for a minimum of 2-3 months. Plenty of time to adjust it.

In the meantime, go post in the PTR forum and give them your feedback on it..
Edited by Imcutesy on 6/19/2013 7:34 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
14385
Yeah not sure why they're so obsessed with wanting to have us use divine storm in our rotation. Though Last patch on the PTR they had a similar dumb thing going on for T15 but made it much better after complaints.

I really hope this doesn't go live, otherwise I see myself keeping the 4 set and just upgrading around it similar to how Holy pallies kept T14 for a while.
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100 Human Paladin
16855
Still early in the PTR. It will be up for a minimum of 2-3 months. Plenty of time to adjust it.

In the meantime, go post in the PTR forum and give them your feedback on it..


I know i know but i mean they just changed the set bonus to add 50% more damage to it like that will fix it.
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100 Human Paladin
11195
06/19/2013 06:15 PMPosted by Ritalynn
Adding 50% to a bad set bonus still makes it bad.

I'm not sure of that.

With a 50% boost, DS will hit roughly as hard as TV. TV is not low-priority filler, so I don't see why a TV-strength DS would be.

I'm not yet sure whether this makes it actually worthwhile as a set bonus, though.
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14755
The flat 50% buff, also factoring in Inq, brings it to 195% (100 * 1.3 * 1.5) weapon, yes? TV mitigated by boss armor of 35% is, what, 204% (273 / 1.35)? Little fuzzier on that part. But if I'm right, it's still weaker than TV and should still be prioritized lower. Some early sim work from a guy at EJ placed the 4pT16 pre-buff at a whole 1% increase, so now we're looking at 1.5%, maybe?

Still weak, still sucks.
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100 Human Paladin
11195
35% armor would mean 275*.65 = 179, not 275/1.35 = 204. Armor isn't haste ;)

Edit: Moreover, whether it prioritizes slightly above or slightly below TV isn't the point - a non-buffed DS prioritizes below *everything*, an almost-as-strong-as-TV DS would prioritize above everything except TV.
Edited by Ravicana on 6/19/2013 8:42 PM PDT
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14755
Yeah, kinda thought I was flubbing that bit; don't have to work boss armor in to things often enough. >_<

Okay, so stronger than TV; may have to reconsider. It's still incredibly bland and uninspired, though.
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100 Human Paladin
11195
Yeah, I'm also not sure that it's a *good* bonus exactly (it would be 1.5% if you still prioritized it last, but I don't know how much that would change when it becomes higher priority; the target for set bonuses seems to be ~3%); I'm just saying it's not obviously garbage like the last version. There may still be some tuning to do, and as you say it's kind of bland.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15060
Please note, this post is going to be discussing whether the proc from the set bonus is worth using, not whether it's a well designed set bonus overall.

A free Divine Storm, single target and unbuffed, prioritizes below Judgment (our lowest priority Holy Power builder), and I've not seen math how it prioritizes in relation to a 3/4 HP Templar's Verdict. It's a bad bonus regardless, and highly unlikely to be worth breaking our current 4p to obtain it.

A free Divine Storm, single target and at +50% strength, will hit harder than Templar's Verdict and should prioritize above Judgment. Due to delaying the next TV, as well as the comparatively low chance of overwriting the proc, it probably doesn't prioritize much higher than that, but we aren't going to see procs to go waste.

The actual value of the proc is rather complex to determine: the damage gained, minus the damage lost from whatever else you'd have cast during that GCD. Holy Avenger has negative synergy (we're either ignoring the 4p despite proccing it like crazy, or we're losing out on a lot of TVs) and Sanctified Wrath will result in plenty of wasted procs (unless, somehow, the 4p is worth using ahead of Exorcism, in which case we don't likely waste any, see below), and an Art of War proc immediately after casting Exorcism has the potential to waste procs unless the 4p goes above Crusader Strike.

If the 4p is worth using above Crusader Strike, and my hunch is that it would require further buffs, the only reasonable situations where we'd waste procs is during level 75 CDs, or during the final 20% where Art of War could allow two Exorcisms and a Hammer of Wrath between Templar's Verdict casts. If the 4p ends up prioritizing above Exorcism, we'd never waste a proc except maybe inside Holy Avenger.

With Sanctified Wrath and 4p t16 > Exo priority, let's imagine we start at 2 HP, having just hit TV and procced our 4p. We then go HoW - DS - HoW - TV, dropping to 1 HP. HoW - Exo/CS - HoW - TV keeps us at 1 HP, and we just continue ending up at 1 HP until we proc our 4p again, which would cause HoW - DS - HoW - Exo/CS - HoW - TV, back to 2. It's self-sustaining without ever conflicting with casting Hammer of Wrath every other GCD. If our level 90 talent comes off CD, it fits in the same way as DS would, or else ends up pushed back a few globals.

The basic idea of "buff the Divine Storm cast until worth using" is fine, and it looks like the sweet spot for single target is to buff it above Exorcism. The problem then would be the AoE splash for cleave fights, but it should be possible to only increase the damage on the primary target that far. Now, how far you'd have to buff Divine Storm to reach that priority, I don't know, and the 4p might end up too much of a damage increase at that point. More awake mathcrafters than I will have to take that one up.
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14755
I'm still not sure this new DS+50 would get prioritized above everything except TV since it has no interaction with our resource management, which is really what the rotation is built around. Free stuff (read, DP) is typically treated as filler and placed dead last in priority - or, more accurately, the rough equivalent of a 3~4HoPo TV, which is still behind all generators - unless it has significant damage output, like ES/LH.
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100 Draenei Paladin
11290
If they really wanted to jam it in there they could make the math work, they could put it at 1000% and off the GCD and I still wouldn't like it as a set bonus.

The problems this and the old proposed t15 bonus are:

1: unless they add an in game ui tracker for it, having a random proc which makes you need to use a different ability is a pain to watch for. If I wanted to do that I would be playing a frost DK. (I know we have somethings close to this already with art of war and DP, but in both cases they procs abilities already in our priority system which we want to be hitting when up anyway, this procs something which is only even considered if it procs.)

2: having cleave be a single target DPS boost is a pain on any fight which has a mechanic that discourages aoe, and there have been quite a few of them in even the relatively short time I've played wow. In ICC when I was a tank I remember not being able to use hammer of the righteous (at the time one of prot's main strikes since it had no CS at the time) or unglyphed (if it was available at the time, I can't remember.) Avenger's shield on fights like saurfang and p1 and struggling for threat (granted I was also kind of a noob at the time, so threat issues may have been a bit deeper, but not being able to use my main skills didn't help much.) On H spine of death wing, if I was passively cleaving all the time while trying to single target the amalgamation I might have damaged tentacles or blown up oozes and killed someone. On H spirit kings, extra unassigned aoe during the madness might kill someone if you got unlucky, on H horridon, of you have 2 war bears up you only want to kill one at a time and leave the other up while you kill a beast shaman, if by using aoe to single target the beast shaman you kill the war bear too early, you might get double lightning nova totems or chain lightning ect. Almost forgot: dark animus adds take 90% reduced aoe damage.

And I know in these situations you could just say "well don't aoe." But if our single target damage is being balanced around using an aoe spell, then having to forgo it in situations like these will be a loss, and may even warrant carrying around offset pieces which are either better itemized or higher ilv (assuming tf system comes back) offset gear for those fights.

So all in all, I'm hoping they just change it to something else which would be cooler and less annoying/disruptive to use.
Edited by Darthelmet on 6/19/2013 9:52 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
3990
.
Edited by Baraktituz on 6/20/2013 1:04 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
8845
Just make it DS is now free and off GCD


That would be the best solution if they want to force Divine Storm into Ret's rotation because some people love the animation of it, even then some Rets will surely place a higher value on the "Holy" Templar's Verdict, makes me hopeful they will make the proc baseline for Ret like they did with the AW cd reduction...

A Ret can dream right?
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90 Draenei Paladin
3990
T16 4pc: Censure now stacks up to 8 times on your primary target when Seal of Truth is active, and can be applied up to a stack of 3 on non-primary targets by Divine Storm regardless of the active seal

As far as the babies who want to see DS spell animations more often...they could just make a minor glyph that causes TV to look like DS.
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90 Human Rogue
2445
I really don't like two things about the 4 set:

a) It's really under performing vs our current 4 set. Even with the new buff it would still result to less dps. Where it might shine is if the new raid has a lot of AoE fights.

b) It makes DP almost mandatory. We were told over and over again that "we like the players to have a choice". Well, dear sirs where is our choice here? I really don't like DP as a talent or even as an option. We need to part from that RNG mentality and not go back to it.
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100 Human Paladin
16855
Honestly we can factor in + 50% damage to the new t16 4peice vs the armor mitigation by having the current t15 4 peice of TV doing holy damage.

But the one thing we also need to never forget during these napkin math scenarios is.

Divine storm doesn't give holy power, and divine storm does not proc the bonus holy damage from mastery as ret.

As a whole, the bonus still looks nothing more than a "filler" if something is off CD, possibly before judgement even.

What were really needing to look at is the actual dps increase of wearing full t15 with respected offset items, vs t16 with respected offset items.

Given the set bonuses and how powerful the current 4 peice is. How much will our damage actually go up with t16 vs other classes.

I just don't want to see ret go from a fairly good place, to bottom of the barrel dps during end game content pushes.
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100 Human Paladin
11195
The more I think about it, the more I think this probably does still need tuning, but even in the worst case, a mediocre set bonus isn't going to make us bottom-of-the-barrel. Set bonuses just are not that large. A weak vs strong set bonus is a difference of 1-2% DPS.
06/20/2013 07:58 AMPosted by Ritalynn
and divine storm does not proc the bonus holy damage from mastery as ret.

DS benefits from Hand of Light.
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